Names on House Deeds - Legal Meaning?
Discussion
Hi all.
On your residential house deeds, if both a husband and wife, or say two friends, or partners etc are named what does that mean in law?
Does it mean they both have an equal share in the ownership (£value) of the house?
Or is it like say a name on a car V5 where that just means registered keeper and is nothing to do with actual ownership of the car?
Many thanks.
On your residential house deeds, if both a husband and wife, or say two friends, or partners etc are named what does that mean in law?
Does it mean they both have an equal share in the ownership (£value) of the house?
Or is it like say a name on a car V5 where that just means registered keeper and is nothing to do with actual ownership of the car?
Many thanks.
IANAL. When I got married I purchased the house with inheritance proceeds. My husband did not put anything towards the house as he had put a lot of money into businesses. We agreed he would contribute in other ways. Come legal paperwork the solicitor said I had to list his name as he would be living there. She said he had equal claim to everything regardless of not paying in.
Super_GP said:
IANAL. When I got married I purchased the house with inheritance proceeds. My husband did not put anything towards the house as he had put a lot of money into businesses. We agreed he would contribute in other ways. Come legal paperwork the solicitor said I had to list his name as he would be living there. She said he had equal claim to everything regardless of not paying in.
I am afraid you got some bad advice there.It's not necessary to add your spouse to the deeds.
JeffreyD said:
Super_GP said:
IANAL. When I got married I purchased the house with inheritance proceeds. My husband did not put anything towards the house as he had put a lot of money into businesses. We agreed he would contribute in other ways. Come legal paperwork the solicitor said I had to list his name as he would be living there. She said he had equal claim to everything regardless of not paying in.
I am afraid you got some bad advice there.It's not necessary to add your spouse to the deeds.
MikeStroud said:
Don't know. The deeds just say "Proprietor" followed by two names.
The v5 analogy isn't a bad one In most cases the keeper and owner will match up but recognise trusts as a form of ownership here so it's possible those named on the title are holding it on behalf of someone else. Or that there is an unequal split of ownership between those named.
If they are tenants in common, the % split will not be recorded at the land registry but there should be the following somewhere:
No Disposition By A Sole Proprietor Or The Registered Estate (Except A Trust Corporation) Under Which Capital Money Arises Is To Be
Registered Unless Authorized By An Order Of The Court
If they are joint tenants then the phrase will not be there.
I would not say it is like a V5 which only captures the keeper, the Land Registry does capture ownership it may just not provide all the of the detail.
No Disposition By A Sole Proprietor Or The Registered Estate (Except A Trust Corporation) Under Which Capital Money Arises Is To Be
Registered Unless Authorized By An Order Of The Court
If they are joint tenants then the phrase will not be there.
I would not say it is like a V5 which only captures the keeper, the Land Registry does capture ownership it may just not provide all the of the detail.
Only thing I can add to this relates to the parents in law. F-i-L died and in his will put his 50% of the marital home into a trust, the beneficiary, if that is the right word, was his wife, my m-i-l, to use and live in for the rest of her days. Trustees of this trust were named as his son, ie my b-i-l, and myself.
Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
FiF said:
Only thing I can add to this relates to the parents in law. F-i-L died and in his will put his 50% of the marital home into a trust, the beneficiary, if that is the right word, was his wife, my m-i-l, to use and live in for the rest of her days. Trustees of this trust were named as his son, ie my b-i-l, and myself.
Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
Wow. That is unbelievable! So only your m-i-l lived there but as you and your b-i-l were trustees you were deemed to be living there hence the council tax bill. Sounds completely unfair.Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
If only Councils were as tenacious in filling potholes and other services as they are in screwing the last penny out of you.
CharlesElliott said:
If they are tenants in common, the % split will not be recorded at the land registry but there should be the following somewhere:
No Disposition By A Sole Proprietor Or The Registered Estate (Except A Trust Corporation) Under Which Capital Money Arises Is To Be
Registered Unless Authorized By An Order Of The Court
If they are joint tenants then the phrase will not be there.
I would not say it is like a V5 which only captures the keeper, the Land Registry does capture ownership it may just not provide all the of the detail.
That (similar) wording is there in the deeds, so that means tenants-in-common.No Disposition By A Sole Proprietor Or The Registered Estate (Except A Trust Corporation) Under Which Capital Money Arises Is To Be
Registered Unless Authorized By An Order Of The Court
If they are joint tenants then the phrase will not be there.
I would not say it is like a V5 which only captures the keeper, the Land Registry does capture ownership it may just not provide all the of the detail.
So as far as the Land Registry are concerned the house is considered to be jointly owned by both named "Proprietors"?
In a joint tenancy (without the wording), the parties both own 'all' of the property.
In tenants in common (as in this case), each party owns a specific share of the property - it could be 50%, or it could be some other %. That information is not recorded by the land registry but elsewhere. But yes, the land registry is recording that both parties own some portion of the property.
In tenants in common (as in this case), each party owns a specific share of the property - it could be 50%, or it could be some other %. That information is not recorded by the land registry but elsewhere. But yes, the land registry is recording that both parties own some portion of the property.
FiF said:
Only thing I can add to this relates to the parents in law. F-i-L died and in his will put his 50% of the marital home into a trust, the beneficiary, if that is the right word, was his wife, my m-i-l, to use and live in for the rest of her days. Trustees of this trust were named as his son, ie my b-i-l, and myself.
Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
This now worries me as I have a 25% share of my fathers house, brother is the other 25% partner. Left to us after the death of my mother in early 2019.Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
W124Bob said:
This now worries me as I have a 25% share of my fathers house, brother is the other 25% partner. Left to us after the death of my mother in early 2019.
To be honest the biggest pain for us, ignoring that we actually had to pay out something, was that for whatever reason they'd created two accounts, one for each of us, then applied the full amount owed onto both accounts, then set two separate account agents onto the collections who seemingly hated each other's guts so they didn't actually speak to each other. They were both just a
holes, frankly, though I guess when you spend your days chasing folks who owe money then must get hardened. Once the discussion taken up to a technical officer with the grade and power to hold a rational conversation and take appropriate action it was sorted. I guess there was also some frustrations around their differing interpretations of the situation dependant upon the line they were taking that day.Not going to name the individual council concerned, except to say hard Labour controlled. The only example I have encountered of greater council incompetence and intransigence was from Sheffield City, during the time of the "poll tax", sorry community charge. We'd sold up, moved away from the area, they'd closed our account, knew where we now lived, but the folks who bought our house hadn't registered for the charge. So 6 months after sale Sheffield came after us for payment of second / unoccupied home taxes, as we couldn't tell them the previous addresses of the buyers. Apparently sending someone to knock on the door was just too difficult.
W124Bob said:
FiF said:
Only thing I can add to this relates to the parents in law. F-i-L died and in his will put his 50% of the marital home into a trust, the beneficiary, if that is the right word, was his wife, my m-i-l, to use and live in for the rest of her days. Trustees of this trust were named as his son, ie my b-i-l, and myself.
Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
This now worries me as I have a 25% share of my fathers house, brother is the other 25% partner. Left to us after the death of my mother in early 2019.Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
MikeStroud said:
That (similar) wording is there in the deeds, so that means tenants-in-common.
So as far as the Land Registry are concerned the house is considered to be jointly owned by both named "Proprietors"?
It means that each named proprietor owns an agreed and specific percentage of the property which could be anything. It could be 1% to owner A and 99% to owner B, or it could be 50% each to owners A and B. There will be a Deed of Trust somewhere which specifies the percentages. So as far as the Land Registry are concerned the house is considered to be jointly owned by both named "Proprietors"?
Should've explained further. Tenants-in-common don't own the property "jointly" in legal terms. Owning something "jointly" is when you own the whole jointly so you can't divide it. Best way to explain it is in inheritance terms - you can't leave something you own "jointly" with another person to a third party on your death. If you own a property as tenants-in-common with 50% share each, you can leave your 50% share to anyone you like on your death and the other tenant-in-common can do the same. With joint tenants, however, you each jointly own 100% of the property so when one tenant dies, the other still owns the 100% of the property. The deceased cannot pass a share to a survivor because there isn't a specified share to pass. Therefore, the surviving tenant becomes the sole owner of whole.
That's what is meant by joint ownership in legal terms. The same principle applies to debts when parties are jointly liable for a debt.
That's what is meant by joint ownership in legal terms. The same principle applies to debts when parties are jointly liable for a debt.
FiF said:
Only thing I can add to this relates to the parents in law. F-i-L died and in his will put his 50% of the marital home into a trust, the beneficiary, if that is the right word, was his wife, my m-i-l, to use and live in for the rest of her days. Trustees of this trust were named as his son, ie my b-i-l, and myself.
Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
I suspect part of this is due to half of the house not being part of your m-i-l's estate, it was already effectively yours. While the double payment and discount was the council being stupid having to pay the empty house tax rate does make sense as only half of it is subject to probate. You could argue the rate should only be on the band equivalent to half the house value, but I don't see that getting anywhere given your description of the council. Fast forward about 13 years and now m-i-l died. Started sorting out probate etc, what were the debts owed by the estate etc. Council confirmed that no council tax was payable for 6 months after the date of death or until probate granted, and as the council tax had been fully paid up for the year a refund was due for the remaining few months of the tax year, this was paid to my b-i-l as agreed. If the house was still unsold after 6 months then council tax would be payable at the appropriate rate.
Some time later council comes back on to both of us with a stonking bill for council tax. They claimed that as we were named on the land registry records that we were actually tenants in common with m-i-l, therefore not only did the 6 months after date of decease dispensation not apply, but that the discount for single occupancy no longer applied so they were going to claim that too. Plus they had opened an new account for each of us separately, invoiced the full amount on both accounts, and immediately started chasing both of us for the full payment with threats of if not paid in full by month end etc. Argued that these were our second homes and we both owed it according their collection folks, left hand not talking to right hand.
Harsh words were involved to sort that out, and essentially the only bit we managed to get out of was that we both owed the money, and the correct conclusion that is was only owed once by the estate. Didn't get round the loss of the 6 months dispensation or the loss of the single person discount, obviously. House managed to sell, fortunately, before the next financial hurdle which was an increase in council tax under the premises unoccupied for longer than a certain time.
Certainly a difficult pill to swallow considering how bloody useless the council had been in helping with other matters in the later years of their lives.
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