constables unable to pull cars over? why not?
Discussion
I saw a client today who is a low level constable in nottinghamshire police force, he works in the city centre and while on the subject of me begging him to stop and nail as many 'suspect' persons (ie the kind of people coppers generally have noses for 
) he casually mentioned that while he is in his panda car he cannot pull over or gesture to stop any motorised vehicle, not even a mini moto!
he said 'we're not qualified for it, we call for traffic and they put a tag on it, or nothing happens if there's no cars available'
wtf?
could someone explain why this is please?
>> Edited by minimax on Tuesday 26th July 19:27
) he casually mentioned that while he is in his panda car he cannot pull over or gesture to stop any motorised vehicle, not even a mini moto! he said 'we're not qualified for it, we call for traffic and they put a tag on it, or nothing happens if there's no cars available'
wtf?
could someone explain why this is please?
>> Edited by minimax on Tuesday 26th July 19:27
I suspect he has a "Basic" driving permit; that is, he is only allowed to use Police vehicles to travel from A to B, following EXACTLY the same rules of the road as MsoP. Basic drivers are not permitted to stop vehciles, or use auxiliary warning equipment (other than if stationary, ie to close a road/scene).
The next step up is "Standard" - usually driving Panda cars (or anything up to about 2000cc usually), who can use emergency equipment, but are (individual force depending) normally limited to 20mph above posted limits on emergency runs. They can stop drivers, but cannot pursue.
Then there are the "Advanced" drivers - usually area car, traffic, ARV or similar roles (some of our dog handlers have also done the advanced car course). Normally, the 20 plus in a red ringed limit applies, but NSL is down to the officer's judgement*.
...puts opener down, steps away from can of worms...
The next step up is "Standard" - usually driving Panda cars (or anything up to about 2000cc usually), who can use emergency equipment, but are (individual force depending) normally limited to 20mph above posted limits on emergency runs. They can stop drivers, but cannot pursue.
Then there are the "Advanced" drivers - usually area car, traffic, ARV or similar roles (some of our dog handlers have also done the advanced car course). Normally, the 20 plus in a red ringed limit applies, but NSL is down to the officer's judgement*.
...puts opener down, steps away from can of worms...
parrot of doom said:
So if a basic driver sees a little girl being dragged screaming into a car by a fat man, and the car speeds away, the basic driver can't follow at speed?
You've pretty much got it. In fact, the "Basic" driver can't "follow" at all, a follow in effect being a pursuit.
Dibble said:
So if a basic driver sees a little girl being dragged screaming into a car by a fat man, and the car speeds away, the basic driver can't follow at speed?
You've pretty much got it. In fact, the "Basic" driver can't "follow" at all, a follow in effect being a pursuit.
Blimey!
And to think "Stop! Or I'll say stop again!" used to be a joke...
But as a MOP I would follow the car, and no law says I cannot.
(Unless I break speed limits of course, which to save a little girl, you can bet I would - can you imagine the stories in the papers of brave man saves child, and SCP fall slavering over themselves to do their upmost to fine me for going past a 'safety van' whilst doing so).
So, can the basic trained driver pretent not to be a PC?
(Unless I break speed limits of course, which to save a little girl, you can bet I would - can you imagine the stories in the papers of brave man saves child, and SCP fall slavering over themselves to do their upmost to fine me for going past a 'safety van' whilst doing so).
So, can the basic trained driver pretent not to be a PC?
busa_rush said:
'Cos the World is going mad ?
No no the world is fine, George W says global warming is bollox, nuclear powers is the future and Italy have just raised the speed limits in line with improvements in Technology.
The people who work for the BBC and the Sandalist (Guardian) are completely mad and unfortunately they influence the mad mullah of Westminster and as a consequense we appear to be going mad.
Incredible..... Are they allowed to pursue on foot or do they have to have an advanced shoe leather handling course?
I now have an image of plod running down a high street complete with blue flashing light (on top of helmet)while making nee naarr noises..... in order to fall with ACPO guidelines for foot pursuits
I now have an image of plod running down a high street complete with blue flashing light (on top of helmet)while making nee naarr noises..... in order to fall with ACPO guidelines for foot pursuits
Dibble said:
So if a basic driver sees a little girl being dragged screaming into a car by a fat man, and the car speeds away, the basic driver can't follow at speed?
You've pretty much got it. In fact, the "Basic" driver can't "follow" at all, a follow in effect being a pursuit.
You *have* to be joking, surely to God ?
You're seriously telling me, that a BiB in a car who isn't trained sufficiently can't even wave a vehicle to stop in any circumstances ???????
What would happen then if - suppose there was (say) a bank robbery and you used your car as a block to stop the getaway vehicle - if you weren't "trained to stop" so to speak - I mean to you cops ?
autismuk said:
parrot of doom said:
So if a basic driver sees a little girl being dragged screaming into a car by a fat man, and the car speeds away, the basic driver can't follow at speed?
You've pretty much got it. In fact, the "Basic" driver can't "follow" at all, a follow in effect being a pursuit.
You *have* to be joking, surely to God ?
No! No Joke. The public, especially on this board often berate semi trained drivers of police vehicles. These officers who have class 5 authorisation are not trained at all. They have the same qualification as you or any other Mop who has not received structured training.
By giving these officers the ability to travel from one enquiry to the next in marked vehicles, the service is more efficient rather than having to have a trained driver chauffeur them around.
Autismuk said:
You're seriously telling me, that a BiB in a car who isn't trained sufficiently can't even wave a vehicle to stop in any circumstances ???????
Yes. Until they are trained they are much bigger risk to you and the public so the risk is reduced by policy that prevents untrained police drivers from making mistakes that the media and arm chair generals can criticise.
Autismuk said:
What would happen then if - suppose there was (say) a bank robbery and you used your car as a block to stop the getaway vehicle - if you weren't "trained to stop" so to speak - I mean to you cops ?
You would be breaching just about every policy on road driver training, Use of police vehicles and dealing with armed (if a weapon of any sort was suspected) incidents and traffic laws surrounding that sort of action.
Blocking roads is a complete NO by any means unless it is a structured authorised operation with properly trained units such as T pack!
If an untrained unit is put in that position, their training tells them what they shuld do. That is to observe only and not get in the way! Control rooms are aware of who is using what vehicles for what purpose and their relevant qualification. If the driver is class 5, then the control room will instruct them to stop any actions they may want to take to resolve such incidents.
Gung Ho policing is frowned upon and those who use it have lots of questions to answer at internal enquiries, even if the end result is a positive one. If things go wrong, there is a huge hole to be dug out from by the person who failed to obey instructions and possibly the next in line supervisor for failing to do their job and supervise appropriately.
I am a class 5 driver and as Gone states i cannot:
1) Stop or attempt to stop any vehicle on the roads using emergency equipment.
2) Use any warning equipment ie blues and 2's.
3) Exceed the speed limit.
4) Attend any job graded urgent or above.
The system falls down on a few big points.
Control room do not know what class of driver i am. All they know is the N is gone from my personal screen meaning i am able to drive police vehicles.
Hence why when i am crewed with a non driver i am sent to urgent and immediates. (Still not able to use emergency equipment).
We are that strapped on drivers that i and other non class 4 drivers are crewing immediate response callsigned cars. But are having to shout up each time saying "I cannot use blue's or 2's but will make as best i can".
And we all know what mess we would be in if any of the equipment was used or a polacc were to occur!
1) Stop or attempt to stop any vehicle on the roads using emergency equipment.
2) Use any warning equipment ie blues and 2's.
3) Exceed the speed limit.
4) Attend any job graded urgent or above.
The system falls down on a few big points.
Control room do not know what class of driver i am. All they know is the N is gone from my personal screen meaning i am able to drive police vehicles.
Hence why when i am crewed with a non driver i am sent to urgent and immediates. (Still not able to use emergency equipment).
We are that strapped on drivers that i and other non class 4 drivers are crewing immediate response callsigned cars. But are having to shout up each time saying "I cannot use blue's or 2's but will make as best i can".
And we all know what mess we would be in if any of the equipment was used or a polacc were to occur!
gone said:
No! No Joke. The public, especially on this board often berate semi trained drivers of police vehicles. These officers who have class 5 authorisation are not trained at all. They have the same qualification as you or any other Mop who has not received structured training.
.... they are berated if they are being idiotic, like Mr 159mph for example. I don't have any problem with a requirement for High Speed Pursuit training, but it strikes me as utterly bizarre that you actually can't stop a vehicle by waving it down ? I'd always assumed any Cop could stop me if necessary .....
Gone said:
Gung Ho policing is frowned upon and those who use it have lots of questions to answer at internal enquiries, even if the end result is a positive one. If things go wrong, there is a huge hole to be dug out from by the person who failed to obey instructions and possibly the next in line supervisor for failing to do their job and supervise appropriately.
Hm .... this sounds like a bureaucracy job ; follow the rules without question, even if they are nonsensical, otherwise you'd get trampled on.
"Gung Ho !" policing ; now, yes, someone charging full pelt into a firearms situation (say), maybe, but are you really telling me that you can't use your initiative and common sense.
gone said:
[quote=Autismuk]
You're seriously telling me, that a BiB in a car who isn't trained sufficiently can't even wave a vehicle to stop in any circumstances ???????
Yes. Until they are trained they are much bigger risk to you and the public so the risk is reduced by policy that prevents untrained police drivers from making mistakes that the media and arm chair generals can criticise.
Seems an absurd over-reaction to me. Virtually every "media criticism" is about high speed chases gone wrong. Seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me.
autismuk said:
"Gung Ho !" policing ; now, yes, someone charging full pelt into a firearms situation (say), maybe, but are you really telling me that you can't use your initiative and common sense.
You are expected to know how to and to use your common sense. You are also expected to comply with policy and procedure! Using common sense does not mean breaching either policy or procedure.
Breaching the rules will most probably be construed as not using common sense and be appropriately addressed.
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