Dangerous driving

[Wackywoo105]

A family member was stopped by the police and apparently accused of dangerous driving. They say they were approaching a stalled/stopped learner vehicle and moved into the oncoming lane to pass it. They say there was no other vehicles around, or pedestrians, and visibility around the scene was good. Police in a parked-up vehicle observed and stopped them. Police allege it was a dangerous driving manoeuvre and say family member went too far on to the other side of the road. There are no continuous lines or bollard with arrows etc. The police requested the family members driving licence and insisted it is a legal requirement to have it on you when driving (first I’ve heard about this). Apparently, the family member disagreeing with this repeatedly resulted in the officer threatening arrest?!?

It doesn’t sound like it was the most cordial exchange. Family member possibly has Asperger’s, so isn’t the easiest to talk to and can come across quite argumentative when they are not being. I only have one side of the story and no paperwork was issued or has arrived yet, so some of these details may be incorrect.

Alleged offence happened around here on Hindley rd past old hall lane heading towards the roundabout approx. 6.30pm https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5352354,-2.5226764...

I have a few questions.

Does dangerous driving mean auto ban? I’ve read some law firm sites which say it is a mandatory ban yet others suggest not.

Is an improvement course a possibility?

Is it a straight to court affair?

Is it possible if going to court to try and negotiate the charge down to careless?

Is it time to lawyer up?

I will of course head over to pepipoo at some point and before anyone suggests, no it isn’t me.

[JulianHJ]

Wait and see what paperwork comes through and seek legal advice accordingly. Not much else you (or they) can do until then. Doesn't sound like dangerous driving based on the description given, or even due care - who knows what the reality of the situation was though?

[focusxr5]

I won't comment on the manner of driving or the area as I don't know enough about either to draw a conclusion but I will say the following:-

It is a legal requirement to produce all driving documents when requested by an officer in uniform. However, it is accepted that people don't always carry them which is why the HO/RT1 form exists (7 day producer). Though that is rare now as it can be done by a ~DL transaction on PNC. Unless the officer wanted to ascertain ID by way of the picture and therefore thought ID was an issue. That would be the only way an arrest would have been necessary is those circs if sticking to the necessity test for arrest. Other questions though

Was your family member just given a bking or were they interviewed contemporaneously at the roadside under caution?

Were they given a verbal NIP? (I'm reporting you for the consideration of the question blah blah blah)

Were they ever cautioned?

If none of the above happened then I would dare suggest that it was words of advice. I can't comment on the attitude of either person as I wasn't there

[Wackywoo105]

Family member says signed something on a phone but was not allowed to read it. No paperwork was given.

[M.F.D]

In short, speak to a solicitor once the copy complaint arrives. However you may be able to go into your local office with the family member and clarify details, or call the police and ask for a call-back from the officers who dealt with the situation. Then you could maybe ask for clarity given that the driver has a disability.

Dangerous driving (S.2 RTA 1988) is a report case, no tickets etc are an option, so this is why the family member would not have had any paperwork.

No, it does not mean it would be a straight ban. Totally dependant on circumstances, but if convicted points and a fine is likely.

Driver improvement course is a possibility, again depends on circumstances.

If it goes to court, it may be bargained to a careless (S.3) which is less serious. Or the crown may not be interested at all.

Nothing it clear unfortunately without the full details of the alleged incident.

[Wackywoo105]

Family member says was cautioned and told being reported for dangerous driving. Was told will get a letter and fine OR points and a backlog so it may take a while.

[M.F.D]

Wackywoo105 said:

Family member says was cautioned and told being reported for dangerous driving. Was told will get a letter and fine OR points and a backlog so it may take a while.

This is accurate. It'll arrive in the post and you can plead guilty to what it says or not.

[Wackywoo105]

Thanks all. Will wait and see what turns up. It will make interesting reading.

If we tried to get it down to careless would this be a case of pleading innocent and then asking court to consider careless on the day, or would we have to contact the court in advance?

I also assume a summons must arrive within 6/12? Is that still correct? Or must the court date be within 6/12?

Edited by Wackywoo105 on Sunday 9th January 19:13

[Red9zero]

Was it a marked Police car ? Sounds a bit iffy to me.

[M.F.D]

Wackywoo105 said:

Thanks all. Will wait and see what turns up. It will make interesting reading.

If we tried to get it down to careless would this be a case of pleading innocent and then asking court to consider careless on the day, or would we have to contact the court in advance?

I also assume a summons must arrive within 6/12? Is that still correct? Or must the court date be within 6/12?

Edited by Wackywoo105 on Sunday 9th January 19:13

As far as I can recall, the court has 6 months to start the process, but happy to be corrected. Pretty sure road traffic things can get time barred. This is unlikely though.

No, your solicitor would act on your behalf and try and bargain it down prior to a plead. Basically, he would say you would plead to Careless, but not dangerous and they court may agree to it and then it's done.

You will have many options though, read the paperwork and take it from there. Frustrating waiting on it, but try and put it to the back of your mind until then, nothing you can do.

[Caddyshack]

Wackywoo105 said:

Family member says signed something on a phone but was not allowed to read it. No paperwork was given.

The "but not allowed to read it’ does not make any sense.

[surveyor]

It all sounds bizarre. I can't see how you can go too far to the right unless they are on the pavement.

[Wackywoo105]

It does sound a bit bizarre to me. The police were parked up in a van and it sounds like they were on a mission to give a ticket with the leading officer being quite aggressive. Of course this is one side of the story but I have experienced this myself when many years ago a police officer pulled me and tried to push a speeding ticket on me. He had a very unpleasant attitude and went away with his tail between his legs and I was let go without a ticket. For balance I have encountered many wonderful police officers.

This is why I have dashcam and the first thing I would have done would be set my phone to audio record what transpired.

[LosingGrip]

Speak to AGTLaw on here. He’ll be able to give you advice once the paperwork turns up.

[Somewhatfoolish]

Was the van actually parked, or was it stationary after slamming on its brakes due to your approaching relative?

Just trying to make sense of this as can't see how it could possibly be dangerous to overtake a stationary vehicle there.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

No way is that anything like a dangerous driving offence. In my working life, I saw thousands of driving licences come across my desk, and only 2 had a DD code offence on them. In both cases, the drivers had been involved in a police chase where for miles they had tried to evade capture, had driven on the wrong side of the road, on pavements, etc.

That's dangerous driving. What the OP describes is driving without due care and attention at worse, a CD code offence on the licence

[LunarOne]

I take it there was no dashcam? While being potentially incriminating, they also help to prove innocence in many cases especially when there's a subjective offence. For example some things are clearly dangerous, while others are a matter of proportion, opinion or viewpoint and things look different from the driver's perspective.

[M.F.D]

Wackywoo105 said:

It does sound a bit bizarre to me. The police were parked up in a van and it sounds like they were on a mission to give a ticket with the leading officer being quite aggressive. Of course this is one side of the story but I have experienced this myself when many years ago a police officer pulled me and tried to push a speeding ticket on me. He had a very unpleasant attitude and went away with his tail between his legs and I was let go without a ticket. For balance I have encountered many wonderful police officers.

This is why I have dashcam and the first thing I would have done would be set my phone to audio record what transpired.

He didn't get a ticket though?

[Wackywoo105]

M.F.D said:

He didn't get a ticket though?

I was just explaining an incident where I was pulled many years ago. The officer had an axe to grind and seemed in bad mood. He was very condescending and obnoxious to me. I remained calm and carefully explained why I was not guilty of what he was alleging, which I genuinely wasn't. He was trying fabricate a traffic offence and get me to admit to it. After a while he gave up and let me go, but it could have gone a different way.

My point is I know this can happen from experience. Not all police are nice to deal with. Some have a bad attitude and are on a power trip. I'm not saying that has happened here but it sounds like the officer could have been similar to the one from my experience.

As others have said I'm not sure how the incident as described could result in DD, so will see what the paperwork says and take it from there. Family member has clean licence and I don't think has had a driving offence in 20 years, possibly ever. Their driving is not something I would generally question, so unless they had a significant momentary lapse I don't understand how they could commit DD.

All that reply to realise you are correct. Family member will get a summons. Didn't get a ticket. Note to self read properly before posting.

Edited by Wackywoo105 on Sunday 9th January 21:33

[M.F.D]

Wackywoo105 said:

I was just explaining an incident where I was pulled many years ago. The officer had an axe to grind and seemed in bad mood. He was very condescending and obnoxious to me. I remained calm and carefully explained why I was not guilty of what he was alleging, which I genuinely wasn't. He was trying fabricate a traffic offence and get me to admit to it. After a while he gave up and let me go, but it could have gone a different way.

My point is I know this can happen from experience. Not all police are nice to deal with. Some have a bad attitude and are on a power trip. I'm not saying that has happened here but it sounds like the officer could have been similar to the one from my experience.

As others have said I'm not sure how the incident as described could result in DD, so will see what the paperwork says and take it from there. Family member has clean licence and I don't think has had a driving offence in 20 years, possibly ever. Their driving is not something I would generally question, so unless they had a significant momentary lapse I don't understand how they could commit DD.

Edited by Wackywoo105 on Sunday 9th January 21:31

There is a difference between sitting poaching for a ticket to issue, and charging someone with dangerous driving. I'm not saying they are guilty, but that isn't something you would just slap a driver with for the sake of it.

Of course, we are all continuing to surmise here. None of us have the facts.