Taking Action against a Roofer? Worthwhile?
Discussion
Hi All
In short I have been ripped off by a "cowboy builder".
The job was re-roofing a garage. You can see the end result here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
AGREED JOB
- All done via WhatsApp
- I messaged via WhatsApp someone advertising as *** Roofing on a Facebook group for Trades.
- He messaged me back.
- I sent photos and described the Scope of Works.
- We agreed what needed to be done. What type of flat roof to be installed.
- He sent me various voice notes and messages detailing his expertise, experience and reviews.
- He had reviews on Bark, Checkatrade, Trusted Trader, Rated People etc
- We agreed a start date.
- We agreed a price.
DOING THE WORK
He employed workmen who got on with the job.
They turned up with barely any tools and he was back and forth getting them tools.
He clearly had not planned the job properly.
A two day job, took 3 days.
Different workmen turned up on day 3.
He turned up on Day 1, not very much in Day 2 and not at all on Day 3.
On Day 3 I sent him a message asking if it was advisable to lay GRP roof given it was below 5c. He said it was fine as it was sunny and they'd use more hardener.
On Day 3, it started looking like it wasn't a good job. I don't know much but it didn't look as it was meant to. I notified him of this, sending a photo of a problem, he said it was fine.
DEMANDING PAYMENT
He then phoned me up, said his workers said the roof was completed and that he needed payment.
I informed him that it was not completed, it was not a good job, and we had agreed payment on completion.
This is when he became aggressive. Started shouting at me. That there was barely anything to do except rendering, that he'd never GD problem being oid, that I was being difficult, that he needed to put food on the table, that he had to pay the workers who had worked on the job, that he had another job he needed to buy materials for.
Then he said started shouting: "I'm gonna to come down there right now and I'm gonna get my money. I gonna come down there, you'll see"
At the same time his workers are now banging on the windows. They can't speak much English. They are asking me to pay. They are saying the builder is saying I won't pay. I tell them I'm sorting it out. They keep banging ont eh windows demand I pay.
I tell the workers its not a good job. They say its fine. They continue banging on the windows and refuse to leave our property.
I told him I'd pay half.
He threatened coming down there. I told him I won't be there. He said that didn't matter. He needed his money right now.
Instead of £3.3k. He eventually agreed to take £2.5k.
I pay him to his (I presume) personal account. It is in his name.
The workmen leave. I shut the doors.
Then about 20mins later his workmen reappear. They have opened my garage, entered the property and start banging on the windows again. He had not paid them the agreed amount. They wanted me to pay.
The returned the next day, I told them to speak to the builder.
THE WORK AND ISSUES WITH IT
There are clearly multiple issues with the work (see linked thread at top).
He did remove the old roof and has taken it away.
However the new roof he has constructed you can see in the middle of the roof a long gap, where you can see daylight. That cannot be easily repaired. Along with the multitude of other issues, it needs to be torn down.
CLAIM AMOUNT?
The removal and clearing of the old roof is probably a £800 job.
The rest of the work, including materials, is all substandard and lost.
I know he paid his workmen £440 for (I think) two people, per day. On top of that he will have his costs of materials.
I have paid £2.5k.
WHAT DO I WANT?
Ideally I'd want £1.3k back.
I also never want him to set footonmy property again
WHAT'S CURRENTLY HAPPENING
He left me a couple of voice notes.
He said he took some time off (I thought he needed money for materials for a job he was immediately starting?)
He said he'll be at my place on Thursday or Friday.
I have not responded.
I imagine he'll want his ladders. I don't particularly want to keep them, except out of some small victory.
I suppose if he does attend, I can show him the issues, suggest he strips the top off and starts again, or ask him how he'd fix it. If he doesn't agree to do that, then he has been given opportunity to repair, but has refused.
However, I would not want him to send sub-standard workmen to do more of a rubbish job, then demand the final £800.
Payments were made to him in his name.
I do not have his personal address.
There was no separate written contract.
Everything is by WhatsApp, but it's pretty clear what was agreed. There is therefore sufficient evidence of a contract.
He made references to his business, but no specific statement was ever made to me by him of any company.
I think I have found his company on Companies House.
The address appears to be a Foxtons.
Grateful for thoughts.
Thanks
In short I have been ripped off by a "cowboy builder".
The job was re-roofing a garage. You can see the end result here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
AGREED JOB
- All done via WhatsApp
- I messaged via WhatsApp someone advertising as *** Roofing on a Facebook group for Trades.
- He messaged me back.
- I sent photos and described the Scope of Works.
- We agreed what needed to be done. What type of flat roof to be installed.
- He sent me various voice notes and messages detailing his expertise, experience and reviews.
- He had reviews on Bark, Checkatrade, Trusted Trader, Rated People etc
- We agreed a start date.
- We agreed a price.
DOING THE WORK
He employed workmen who got on with the job.
They turned up with barely any tools and he was back and forth getting them tools.
He clearly had not planned the job properly.
A two day job, took 3 days.
Different workmen turned up on day 3.
He turned up on Day 1, not very much in Day 2 and not at all on Day 3.
On Day 3 I sent him a message asking if it was advisable to lay GRP roof given it was below 5c. He said it was fine as it was sunny and they'd use more hardener.
On Day 3, it started looking like it wasn't a good job. I don't know much but it didn't look as it was meant to. I notified him of this, sending a photo of a problem, he said it was fine.
DEMANDING PAYMENT
He then phoned me up, said his workers said the roof was completed and that he needed payment.
I informed him that it was not completed, it was not a good job, and we had agreed payment on completion.
This is when he became aggressive. Started shouting at me. That there was barely anything to do except rendering, that he'd never GD problem being oid, that I was being difficult, that he needed to put food on the table, that he had to pay the workers who had worked on the job, that he had another job he needed to buy materials for.
Then he said started shouting: "I'm gonna to come down there right now and I'm gonna get my money. I gonna come down there, you'll see"
At the same time his workers are now banging on the windows. They can't speak much English. They are asking me to pay. They are saying the builder is saying I won't pay. I tell them I'm sorting it out. They keep banging ont eh windows demand I pay.
I tell the workers its not a good job. They say its fine. They continue banging on the windows and refuse to leave our property.
I told him I'd pay half.
He threatened coming down there. I told him I won't be there. He said that didn't matter. He needed his money right now.
Instead of £3.3k. He eventually agreed to take £2.5k.
I pay him to his (I presume) personal account. It is in his name.
The workmen leave. I shut the doors.
Then about 20mins later his workmen reappear. They have opened my garage, entered the property and start banging on the windows again. He had not paid them the agreed amount. They wanted me to pay.
The returned the next day, I told them to speak to the builder.
THE WORK AND ISSUES WITH IT
There are clearly multiple issues with the work (see linked thread at top).
He did remove the old roof and has taken it away.
However the new roof he has constructed you can see in the middle of the roof a long gap, where you can see daylight. That cannot be easily repaired. Along with the multitude of other issues, it needs to be torn down.
CLAIM AMOUNT?
The removal and clearing of the old roof is probably a £800 job.
The rest of the work, including materials, is all substandard and lost.
I know he paid his workmen £440 for (I think) two people, per day. On top of that he will have his costs of materials.
I have paid £2.5k.
WHAT DO I WANT?
Ideally I'd want £1.3k back.
I also never want him to set footonmy property again
WHAT'S CURRENTLY HAPPENING
He left me a couple of voice notes.
He said he took some time off (I thought he needed money for materials for a job he was immediately starting?)
He said he'll be at my place on Thursday or Friday.
I have not responded.
I imagine he'll want his ladders. I don't particularly want to keep them, except out of some small victory.
I suppose if he does attend, I can show him the issues, suggest he strips the top off and starts again, or ask him how he'd fix it. If he doesn't agree to do that, then he has been given opportunity to repair, but has refused.
However, I would not want him to send sub-standard workmen to do more of a rubbish job, then demand the final £800.
Payments were made to him in his name.
I do not have his personal address.
There was no separate written contract.
Everything is by WhatsApp, but it's pretty clear what was agreed. There is therefore sufficient evidence of a contract.
He made references to his business, but no specific statement was ever made to me by him of any company.
I think I have found his company on Companies House.
The address appears to be a Foxtons.
Grateful for thoughts.
Thanks
No address and no proper confirmation of who you contracted with
It doesn't matter who his 'company' is if he never mentioned them by name when entering the contract
seems to me like you could win in court but never get payment.
does he have any assets?
finding out his address is key as required for serving court paperwork.
i expect he does this sort of thing regularly.
It doesn't matter who his 'company' is if he never mentioned them by name when entering the contract
seems to me like you could win in court but never get payment.
does he have any assets?
finding out his address is key as required for serving court paperwork.
i expect he does this sort of thing regularly.
Mojooo said:
No address and no proper confirmation of who you contracted with
It doesn't matter who his 'company' is if he never mentioned them by name when entering the contract
seems to me like you could win in court but never get payment.
does he have any assets?
finding out his address is key as required for serving court paperwork.
i expect he does this sort of thing regularly.
I expect the same. It doesn't matter who his 'company' is if he never mentioned them by name when entering the contract
seems to me like you could win in court but never get payment.
does he have any assets?
finding out his address is key as required for serving court paperwork.
i expect he does this sort of thing regularly.
No idea about assets. His vans were livieried, but could be company property.
Finding out his home address, I have his bank account details and his director service address. That's all.
rossyl said:
I expect the same.
No idea about assets. His vans were livieried, but could be company property.
Finding out his home address, I have his bank account details and his director service address. That's all.
Might have found his home addressNo idea about assets. His vans were livieried, but could be company property.
Finding out his home address, I have his bank account details and his director service address. That's all.
But nothing on Land Registry, so I guess he rents.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
rossyl said:
Instead of £3.3k. He eventually agreed to take £2.5k.
The job was substandard. You both agreed an £800 reduction in the price. I suspect that legally, that's the end of it. Unless you can convince a small claims court you were intimidated into reaching that agreement. He could certainly argue that.
I had similar at the end of a piece of work, replacement sewerage pipe, £3k guestmate landed as a £9k bill..Lot’s of shouting and swearing over the phone, knock on the door by gobby/sweary/threatening shyster and one very shaken wife behind me. He buggered off with a threat of coming back tomorrow……so rather than do 999 or 101 I used the on line report an offence to the police, got a call back 40 mins later to fill in the blanks and the offer of a visit for advice by local Police, I said yes to the visit……turns out t
tty boy was well known for being loud/shouty but not for actual violence, and next stop for the police was to read him the riot act. It’s worth doing for peace of mind!
Regards
Jim
tty boy was well known for being loud/shouty but not for actual violence, and next stop for the police was to read him the riot act. It’s worth doing for peace of mind!Regards
Jim
Andeh1 said:
Report the behaviour to the police? That level of intimidation & threatening behavior should be reported!!
Indeed. I would've calmly but quite clearly told the feller on the phone that you were logging this with police and likewise with any apes banging on my property windows. A quick phone call, show them the phone screen through the window. Tell police you feel threatened. Yes, they can be f
king useless at times but that is why they are there. Why should cocky tradesman be above any law? Jimmy No Hands said:
Andeh1 said:
Report the behaviour to the police? That level of intimidation & threatening behavior should be reported!!
Indeed. I would've calmly but quite clearly told the feller on the phone that you were logging this with police and likewise with any apes banging on my property windows. A quick phone call, show them the phone screen through the window. Tell police you feel threatened. Yes, they can be f
king useless at times but that is why they are there. Why should cocky tradesman be above any law? In reality, handing over the cash was probably the right thing to do. You never know quite how close to the edge someone is & you don't want to push them over it, and live with looking over your shoulder.
F
Andeh1 said:
Jimmy No Hands said:
Andeh1 said:
Report the behaviour to the police? That level of intimidation & threatening behavior should be reported!!
Indeed. I would've calmly but quite clearly told the feller on the phone that you were logging this with police and likewise with any apes banging on my property windows. A quick phone call, show them the phone screen through the window. Tell police you feel threatened. Yes, they can be f
king useless at times but that is why they are there. Why should cocky tradesman be above any law? In reality, handing over the cash was probably the right thing to do. You never know quite how close to the edge someone is & you don't want to push them over it, and live with looking over your shoulder.
F
With regard to going to the Police.
I know it will be a "he said" vs "he said". He would deny everything.
All the Police would do is question him under caution, but they cannot take it further due to lack of evidence.
I will then not have any of my money back and have an aggressive idiot even more angered, who knows where I live.
When he comes back I'll record our conversation, as if he does it again, it'll land him in actual trouble if it's recorded.
It's looking like the point of going to Court is diminishing.
I know it will be a "he said" vs "he said". He would deny everything.
All the Police would do is question him under caution, but they cannot take it further due to lack of evidence.
I will then not have any of my money back and have an aggressive idiot even more angered, who knows where I live.
When he comes back I'll record our conversation, as if he does it again, it'll land him in actual trouble if it's recorded.
It's looking like the point of going to Court is diminishing.
Key thing to determine before issuing proceedings is whether there is any prospect of enforcing a judgment.
If he is a limited company, as you will no doubt be aware, his personal assets will be protected. I would be amazed if the company has any real assets.
If you can get him personally on the hook that is slightly better but again, if he has no assets, you will not recover anything.
Having said that, you can enforce a judgment for up to 6 years and in that period, his situation may change.
Suing him in the small claims court will cost you about £300 (plus expert report cost), assuming it went to trial, see:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
From experience of similar disputes, I don't see this ending well but ultimately you can give it a go and see what happens. If you lose, you typically don't pay costs, albeit there is scope for him to potentially counterclaim if he believes he is owed money from the job.
As someone has noted above, if you complained about the job and he agreed to discount the price, there is potentially scope for him to argue that you have already reached a binding compromise. I haven't read everything that you have posted so can't comment on whether that has any merit but it could be a relevant issue.
My bigger concern would be the hassle factor of dealing with a guy like this. Bricks through windows etc can and do happen. Fine if you're a powerfully built PH director and prepared to go toe to toe but a different matter if you're a family man with kids...
Lot to consider, personally I would leave it and chalk it up to experience. Hard pill to swallow though.
If he is a limited company, as you will no doubt be aware, his personal assets will be protected. I would be amazed if the company has any real assets.
If you can get him personally on the hook that is slightly better but again, if he has no assets, you will not recover anything.
Having said that, you can enforce a judgment for up to 6 years and in that period, his situation may change.
Suing him in the small claims court will cost you about £300 (plus expert report cost), assuming it went to trial, see:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
From experience of similar disputes, I don't see this ending well but ultimately you can give it a go and see what happens. If you lose, you typically don't pay costs, albeit there is scope for him to potentially counterclaim if he believes he is owed money from the job.
As someone has noted above, if you complained about the job and he agreed to discount the price, there is potentially scope for him to argue that you have already reached a binding compromise. I haven't read everything that you have posted so can't comment on whether that has any merit but it could be a relevant issue.
My bigger concern would be the hassle factor of dealing with a guy like this. Bricks through windows etc can and do happen. Fine if you're a powerfully built PH director and prepared to go toe to toe but a different matter if you're a family man with kids...
Lot to consider, personally I would leave it and chalk it up to experience. Hard pill to swallow though.
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