Collision – opinions sought

[speedking31]

Looking for possible outcomes. In Warrington, no dashcams.

An intersection between a major road, 2 lanes in each direction, plus turning lanes, not a dual carriageway, with 2 less major roads, but with 2 lanes at the junction. Urban environment, 30 mph limit all round.

Normally traffic light controlled, but the lights have completely failed, daylight.

Blue car is turning right from one of the ‘side’ streets. A white van, oncoming is also turning right, they pass offside to offside.



When the white van has proceeded the blue car continues to turn right.

A red car is approaching on the ‘main’ road, doesn’t slow down, and collides with the front nearside corner of the blue car.

Scenario 1: As the lights have failed and the blue car is established in the junction, and clearly visible, should the red car give way to vehicles coming from the right?

Scenario 2: the blue car should be more observant and not proceed until the red car has passed.

I guess it’s a 50/50 as both drivers have an obligation to avoid an accident, but is it possible that all the blame could be apportioned to one of the drivers?

[ScoobyChris]

I can't really see how it can be anything other than 50/50 if both of them were driving into the same piece of road? If blue car was stationary and red drove into them, maybe you could lay a bit more blame on red but I think it is clutching at straws...

Chris

[Smurfsarepeopletoo]

Difficult one, technically the blue car is coming from a side road, and the red car on a main road, so the red car should technically have priority, but may go 50/50 as a traffic light junction.

[Canon_Fodder]

I vote for scenario 2.

My view is that if the traffic lights weren't working then all parties should proceed with caution and assume priorities are the same as if they didn't exist. As such the vehicle turning into the main road should have waited until it was safe to do so.

Edited by Canon_Fodder on Friday 11th March 11:41

[bigandclever]

Couple of 'ifs', but if the red car was in the left lane, as pictured, and the blue car was hit on the front nearside, that suggests to me the blue car was trying to get in to the same lane, when he could've turned fully into the right lane. Him being hit means he approached from a side road and plonked himself in front of the red car that had priority anyway. Bang to rights, blue car 100% at fault, send him down

[SydneyBridge]

Scenario 2, blue car should not move out until safe to do so, unless he was getting into the lane closest, so would then have avoided red car

Arguable that red car could/should have slowed down or stopped but they were established

Edited by SydneyBridge on Friday 11th March 11:46

[Jamescrs]

I think because it was a traffic light controlled junction and the lights were not working both vehicles should have exercised greater caution and likely to go 50/50

[Driver101]

The red car should have slowed down if the lights were out. I would still say the blue car is at fault. Turning right on to a road they should be giving way.

[mmm-five]

If the lights are out, does it not become the same rules as for an unmarked cross-roads, and you should approach with caution and be prepared to stop/give way to vehicles coming from the right.

Looks like the red car didn't!

[Sebring440]

Driver101 said:

I would still say the blue car is at fault. Turning right on to a road they should be giving way.

This.

Plus I'm assuming that the OP is the blue car as he used the term "established in the junction" whatever that means.

[andburg]

I'll agree with the masses

Blue car predominently at fault, driver is joining road that red is already established on. Blue should have waited until he was clear to join or joined in lane 2 then moved accross when safe to do so.

[speedking31]

Sebring440 said:

Driver101 said:

I would still say the blue car is at fault. Turning right on to a road they should be giving way.

This.

Plus I'm assuming that the OP is the blue car as he used the term "established in the junction" whatever that means.

I have no skin in the game. What I meant by "established in the junction" was that the blue car was not coming from the side road onto the main road in a continuous motion but was stationary in the middle of the junction before moving off again.

[NGee]

speedking31 said:

have no skin in the game. What I meant by "established in the junction" was that the blue car was not coming from the side road onto the main road in a continuous motion but was stationary in the middle of the junction before moving off again.

The red car should have slowed down approaching the out-of-order traffic lights, but it didn't. If the blue car was stationary it should have easily seen that the red car was barrelling along with no chance of stopping, but it still pulled out in front of it.

In this case either driver could have avoided the accident, however if I had to put a figure on it, I'd say 25% red, 75% blue.

This is perfect proof that if you drive like an idiot you will, sooner or later, meet another idiot and it won't end well.

[98elise]

SydneyBridge said:

Scenario 2, blue car should not move out until safe to do so, unless he was getting into the lane closest, so would then have avoided red car

Arguable that red car could/should have slowed down or stopped but they were established

Edited by SydneyBridge on Friday 11th March 11:46

Agree with this.

[agtlaw]

BMW driver to blame.

[Pica-Pica]

There is a large central area for the blue vehicle to wait and get a decent look after the white vehicle has passed. That is a right turn lane (from the direction of the red car), so opportunity to wait there. But who knows how it will go.

[SydneyBridge]

Even more blue car's fault....

[Chrisgr31]

Dont the white lines across the road indicate tat you should stop at the junction?

and to add https://theorytest.org.uk/highway-code-rule-176/#:... "If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care."

I would suggest red cars faut as it appears it didnt slow and proceed with care

Edited by Chrisgr31 on Friday 11th March 22:37

[this is my username]

The highway code says what it says.

In practice the drivers on the "main" road will continue as if they have a green light. It's not right, but that's what they will do.

[quinny100]

100% on blue from an insurance liability perspective. Lights or no lights, blue should not have emerged from the central turning area unless and until the main road was clear.

The lights failure places an even greater burden of caution on blue as they are emerging across a main road. Blue actually could never know the status of the lights on the main road, whilst their side was off the main road could be stuck on green. In the absence of a light directing them to stop, red is established on the main road and can reasonably expect vehicles not to emerge into their path.