Is '20s Plenty' a load of nonsense?
Discussion
Wales are planning to make every 30mph speed limit into a 20mph speed limit some time next year.
This supposedly has cost and environment benefits but for every argument they make I believe there is a counterargument.
I can't see why the 30mph speed limit which has been in place since 1934 suddenly has to be changed when it has served a purpose for such a long time already.
Here's the website being cited by some Welsh assembly members: https://www.20splenty.org/briefings
Don't worry if you're in England or Scotland thinking it doesn't affect you.... because this stuff spreads.
This supposedly has cost and environment benefits but for every argument they make I believe there is a counterargument.
I can't see why the 30mph speed limit which has been in place since 1934 suddenly has to be changed when it has served a purpose for such a long time already.
Here's the website being cited by some Welsh assembly members: https://www.20splenty.org/briefings
Don't worry if you're in England or Scotland thinking it doesn't affect you.... because this stuff spreads.
Jim the Sunderer said:
I expect it's gonna cause more emissions from Jones's 2.0TDi labouring along in 4th gear. Or roaring in 2nd I can't remember.
Yep. My 911 auto box revs a bit higher than it would if I was doing 30 and is louder at 2000rpm. Suits me but not sure about the environment!Also, I feel a little bit more stressed with a line of cars behind me trying to figure out if they can do an overtake.
Likely not a popular opinion here but I’d actually be ok with more 20 limits in towns. There are loads more obstacles/pedestrians/cats/dogs in towns and sometimes 30 seems way too quick for town roads.
Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
griffsomething said:
Likely not a popular opinion here but I’d actually be ok with more 20 limits in towns. There are loads more obstacles/pedestrians/cats/dogs in towns and sometimes 30 seems way too quick for town roads.
Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
It doesn't matter what the speed is, if it's a narrow road with tightly parked cars, I won't be doing anywhere near 30. Some pillocks will... and a 20 sign won't stop them.
Carlososos said:
I would rather a 20mph limit than speed humps. I don’t mind tbh as long as it’s in residential areas or school zones etc. seems excessive to turn every 30 into a 20 though.
It's not that simple. 90% of the roads where they're proposing to apply this don't have speed humps. So this would be a new speed restriction where none previously existed and the option of humps instead of 20mph isn't on the table. Things have moved on a bit since 1934... lot more traffic on the roads....
To be honest ive no problem with 20 zones past schools and down narrow residential streets. But to do it everywhere seems very lazy. Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
Similarly, theres some twisty sections of the m4 that i think should be a 60. But only if clearly sighted section of the m40 were raised to an 80. Appriopriate limit for the road.
To be honest ive no problem with 20 zones past schools and down narrow residential streets. But to do it everywhere seems very lazy. Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
Similarly, theres some twisty sections of the m4 that i think should be a 60. But only if clearly sighted section of the m40 were raised to an 80. Appriopriate limit for the road.
griffsomething said:
Likely not a popular opinion here but I’d actually be ok with more 20 limits in towns. There are loads more obstacles/pedestrians/cats/dogs in towns and sometimes 30 seems way too quick for town roads.
Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
I strongly suspect the reduction to 20mph will drag down the neighbouring NSL. They've been chipping away at those for years anyway. Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
I often drive at 20 or less in 30 limits. It's about driving appropriately, not as close to the limit as possible. I don't know any drivers who drive at 29.5mph down a tiny backstreet where 15mph is the safe speed just because they've been told the limit is 30mph.
brillomaster said:
Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
I think part of the problem is that as a society we've drifted from the original idea of "the speed limit is the absolute maximum" to "the speed limit is a sort of vague guide" which means councils intentionally set the limits lower than it's safe to drive knowing that people will break them. Same with the ever increasing length of time traffic lights spend on double red; they do it because people take the piss and shoot red lights (it's common to see five or six cars go through a set of lights after they've gone red around here) but the more they do it the more people shoot red lights; we somehow need to get everything back to a sensible speed/time/whatever and then enforce it rigourously. ingenieur said:
griffsomething said:
Likely not a popular opinion here but I’d actually be ok with more 20 limits in towns. There are loads more obstacles/pedestrians/cats/dogs in towns and sometimes 30 seems way too quick for town roads.
Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
I strongly suspect the reduction to 20mph will drag down the neighbouring NSL. They've been chipping away at those for years anyway. Maybe it’s becoming a a father recently and pushing the pram about but when you have people charging past you only a metre or so width away from the footpath, I’d much rather they were doing 20.
Also a 20 to NSL sign gives more fun acceleration time than a 30 to NSL
I often drive at 20 or less in 30 limits. It's about driving appropriately, not as close to the limit as possible. I don't know any drivers who drive at 29.5mph down a tiny backstreet where 15mph is the safe speed just because they've been told the limit is 30mph.
Blanket 20 is an absolute nonsense. It's likely to generate more cash from fines.
There are very few places were 20 is appropriate: narrow streets, some schools on narrow roads etc.
We've spent all these years on development of a time-saving method of transportation, only to be faced with silly rules like this. It's completely at odds with the modern pace of life.
There are very few places were 20 is appropriate: narrow streets, some schools on narrow roads etc.
We've spent all these years on development of a time-saving method of transportation, only to be faced with silly rules like this. It's completely at odds with the modern pace of life.
brillomaster said:
Things have moved on a bit since 1934... lot more traffic on the roads....
To be honest ive no problem with 20 zones past schools and down narrow residential streets. But to do it everywhere seems very lazy. Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
Similarly, theres some twisty sections of the m4 that i think should be a 60. But only if clearly sighted section of the m40 were raised to an 80. Appriopriate limit for the road.
this is the problem "appropriate speed for the road" doesn't enter into the equation for some of these nutters - and yes, IMO, the are nutters. Those who ignore the 30 limits will also ignore these. There is no doubt that in some areas a 20 limit is great, possibly even too high depending on time of day (primary schools, OAP developments for example) - however at 03.00 (for example) it's ludicrous.To be honest ive no problem with 20 zones past schools and down narrow residential streets. But to do it everywhere seems very lazy. Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
Similarly, theres some twisty sections of the m4 that i think should be a 60. But only if clearly sighted section of the m40 were raised to an 80. Appriopriate limit for the road.
Sad thing is the self important puffed up types will continue to impose their stupidity on us under some pretext or another and we'll have to comply
I've installed a few 20mph zones, limits, areas around the country in my time, and am actually working on one right now.
20mph guidance says that any new 20mph limit shall not have an expectation of enforcement - so no cameras, or bobbies with speed guns. Average speed cameras in built-up areas are also a waste of time, there are far too many features on the roads, and access points to the zone/area, to make them workable. You can drive through at 30mph, and stop for a few seconds at a ped crossing, bus stop, side road etc and your average speed will be well below 20mph.
Also, 30mph areas are very rarely adhered to, and see traffic broadly doing 34mph (ish) - caveat to say, not on these very tight residential roads with parking on both sides, bus stops, crossing points etc where speeds are naturally restricted. If a 20mph limit/zone results in people driving at around 25mph, then generally the aim of the limit is achieved.
However, I've sat in meetings with the 20's Plenty lot, and they are a fiercely dogmatic pain in the arse and I try to avoid them like the plague - they are worse than these "cycle campaigns" that are popping up all over the country.
20mph guidance says that any new 20mph limit shall not have an expectation of enforcement - so no cameras, or bobbies with speed guns. Average speed cameras in built-up areas are also a waste of time, there are far too many features on the roads, and access points to the zone/area, to make them workable. You can drive through at 30mph, and stop for a few seconds at a ped crossing, bus stop, side road etc and your average speed will be well below 20mph.
Also, 30mph areas are very rarely adhered to, and see traffic broadly doing 34mph (ish) - caveat to say, not on these very tight residential roads with parking on both sides, bus stops, crossing points etc where speeds are naturally restricted. If a 20mph limit/zone results in people driving at around 25mph, then generally the aim of the limit is achieved.
However, I've sat in meetings with the 20's Plenty lot, and they are a fiercely dogmatic pain in the arse and I try to avoid them like the plague - they are worse than these "cycle campaigns" that are popping up all over the country.
brillomaster said:
Things have moved on a bit since 1934... lot more traffic on the roads....
To be honest ive no problem with 20 zones past schools and down narrow residential streets. But to do it everywhere seems very lazy. Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
Similarly, theres some twisty sections of the m4 that i think should be a 60. But only if clearly sighted section of the m40 were raised to an 80. Appriopriate limit for the road.
Things have moved on since 1934. Cars can now stop in a 10th of the distance and all drivers are educated on rules of the road to a much higher standard. To be honest ive no problem with 20 zones past schools and down narrow residential streets. But to do it everywhere seems very lazy. Id much rather the speed limit was appropriate for the road it applied to.
Similarly, theres some twisty sections of the m4 that i think should be a 60. But only if clearly sighted section of the m40 were raised to an 80. Appriopriate limit for the road.
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