Is this section of road technically the M11 or M25?

[FatboyKim]

More of an 'SP&L' question than just 'Roads', but hopefully it's a simple answer. I'm in the process of claiming against Highways England or National Highways or whatever they are called this week after suffering a blowout and damage to another tyre and wheel from hitting a monumental pothole on the slip road on to the M25 (J27) clockwise traveling from the M11 north out of London one night last week.

So as not to get the claim rejected because of something as petty as me listing the wrong road on the form, is the precise location highlighted here on the slip road still the M11, or is it classed as the M25? No amount of zooming in on detailed maps seems to show where the M11 ends and the M25 begins.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6796821,0.126351...

[fred bloggs]

I think the pictures/map you have added to this thread will suffice.

[chopper602]

M11 at that point

[jondude]

The description in your OP and the maps you have there should be fine. Does not appear difficult to locate the site from what you write and send in.

[MattyD803]

I think that would be categorised as the M25 'on slip' at that point - but as above, the details posted above will be more than enough.

Have you got photos of the actual pot hole itself? I appreciate this is a potentially silly question as it's a live motorway, but I just wondered if you took a walk back to the location after you had pulled over (behind the barrier of course!)? If not, was this recent and can you get back there to record on dash cam or with a passenger photo?

If not, I fear that pothole will have long since been filled in and any trace of it's existence denied by Highways Agency. Besides, the greatest portion of your 'red outline' does appear to be within the hard shoulder.....?

[bigandclever]

If you right mouse click on the google map, you can give them the Lat Long position of the hole too (to about 20 decimal places of precision, if you like).

[FatboyKim]

I've got it all on dashcam which shows the location and position of the road defect, that and a lot of swearing in the subsequent moments as I coasted to a section of hard shoulder. I used an SOS phone post as well because I suspected two tyres were blown out and I was going nowhere, so everything can be verified and I've got no problem with my evidence, just wanted to submit the claim accurately and not get it rejected for something so silly as stating the wrong road name on a claim form.

Think car insurance companies and wriggling out paying a legitimate claim with any little detail possible.

[qwerty360]

I expect this may be very difficult to claim on.

Highways England are only liable if they failed to have a reasonable process to inspect and repair. The existance of massive potholes doesn't necessarily prove they don't. (Add in recent extreme heat, and roads cracking etc is plausible)


One of the main reasons for reporting potholes (because once reported they have far less defence if they don't fix promptly; I have had people tell me nothing will be done when stopping while cycling to photo and report potholes and that they have been there for months; When asked if the person saying this has reported it they haven't. Usually within 1-2 days of reporting it is fixed; Because if the council can no longer deny knowledge and argue that they didn't see it in the last inspection...).

Either FixMyStreet or FillThatHole (IIRC both have at least some common implementation)

[NGee]

The picture you have shown above is not the bit of road you've just driven over, it is a picture from Google maps that was taken 2 years ago.
Does your dashcam footage show the pothole better?
If not, as someone else has suggested, is it possible to go back and photograph again somehow?

Assuming you had to be recovered, how exact was the location noted on the recovery paperwork?

[jamei303]

It's the M25 because the 100 metre marker post distances on that slip correspond to the distance on the adjacent M25 main carriageway:

Edited by jamei303 on Thursday 28th July 12:20

Edited by jamei303 on Thursday 28th July 12:20

[GranpaB]

If the pothole is the other side of the white line, i doubt they would out much priority on it considering it is the hard shoulder.

What distracted you to drift over the line OP?

[QuickQuack]

OP is Sergio Perez AICMFP...

[FatboyKim]

NGee said:

...Assuming you had to be recovered, how exact was the location noted on the recovery paperwork?

Didn't get recovered. High-viz on, warning triangle out, changed the tyre then limped to the next junction in the inside lane, fearing the other tyre was a blowout waiting to happen.

GranpaB said:

If the pothole is the other side of the white line, i doubt they would out much priority on it considering it is the hard shoulder.

What distracted you to drift over the line OP?

If the pothole was the other side of the hard shoulder line, I wouldn't bother even trying to claim because I know what the quick response from National Highways would be, but it isn't, so I am.

As has been pointed out already, the Google Maps imaging is from more than 3 years ago -- it's worsened considerably and spread since then.

Edited by FatboyKim on Thursday 28th July 13:56

[nismo48]

qwerty360 said:

I expect this may be very difficult to claim on.

Highways England are only liable if they failed to have a reasonable process to inspect and repair. The existance of massive potholes doesn't necessarily prove they don't. (Add in recent extreme heat, and roads cracking etc is plausible)


One of the main reasons for reporting potholes (because once reported they have far less defence if they don't fix promptly; I have had people tell me nothing will be done when stopping while cycling to photo and report potholes and that they have been there for months; When asked if the person saying this has reported it they haven't. Usually within 1-2 days of reporting it is fixed; Because if the council can no longer deny knowledge and argue that they didn't see it in the last inspection...).

Either FixMyStreet or FillThatHole (IIRC both have at least some common implementation)

Agree, similar scenario on A27 west bound approach to roundabout/southerham near Lewes east Sussex.
Huge split in road surface, wheel dropped inside crack and car almost spun.
Buckled rim/knackered tyre and scared stless in the process.
Numerous calls/emails to no avail sadly..
Long story short..they mentioned(county hiways commission)If I went to Court and lost the claim, all costs etc I would have to meet.
Apparently they didn't lose many !!

[FatboyKim]

Well all I can do is put all my evidence in and hope for the best. Worst case scenario is they say no, and I've paid for some new tyres just slightly earlier than I would have done had I not hit the Mariana Trench, and thankfully the wheels are okay.

It's quite clearly a developed defect, being that there are pictures of it in a less serious form available from over 3 years ago, so their routine & winter maintenance records could make for an interesting read.

Anyway, this wasn't a thread to necessarily keep updated, mainly just to find out if the section of road is the M11 or M25, and I don't know if we're any closer to the answer

Edited by FatboyKim on Thursday 28th July 14:31

[littleredrooster]

FatboyKim said:

Anyway, this wasn't a thread to necessarily keep updated, mainly just to find out if the section of road is the M11 or M25, and I don't know if we're any closer to the answer

The correct answer was given by jamei303 up there ^ ^ a short while ago. It's the M25 at that point.

[Mammasaid]

From the Essex Definitive Map;

Site Name: LINK FROM M11 NORTHBOUND TO M25 CLOCKWIS

Plot Number: 1000.00

Feature id: 00000472

Feature Type Name: Highways Agency Road

Primary Measurement: 804.72

Unit of Measurement: metres

Site Code: 13800793

Central Asset id: 00000472

Feature Group Code: STR

Centroid Easting: 546790.01

Centroid Northing: 199926.57

https://www.essexhighways.org/prow-interactive-map

[MattyD803]

jamei303 said:

It's the M25 because the 100 metre marker post distances on that slip correspond to the distance on the adjacent M25 main carriageway:

Edited by jamei303 on Thursday 28th July 12:20

Edited by jamei303 on Thursday 28th July 12:20

This was my gut feel too, but I hadn't been able to locate those markers on google maps.

There must be a 'mid point' where that slip changes from the M11 to M25.

[FatboyKim]

MattyD803 said:

This was my gut feel too, but I hadn't been able to locate those markers on google maps.

There must be a 'mid point' where that slip changes from the M11 to M25.

That's kind of the point I was getting at, mostly out of self-interest now more than my original reason for asking. Where does the Atlantic Ocean end and the Indian Ocean begin for example?

[MattyD803]

FatboyKim said:

That's kind of the point I was getting at, mostly out of self-interest now more than my original reason for asking. Where does the Atlantic Ocean end and the Indian Ocean begin for example?

If, as was suggested earlier, the M25 'starts' at the give way markings on the floor, that would suggest that for every other motorway 'on slip', the slip road belongs to the local road network which 'served' it....which can't be right.