Is it possible for the police to:

[Thankyou4calling]

Access all the information on your phone if they “Seize it?

I only ask promoted by the shooting of a rapper thread, no personal issues honest!

If the police or ANOther get your phone can they get past the PIN protected lock screen? I seem to recall some years ago that an alleged terrorists phone was inaccessible without help from him.

Also, again just being nosy, when a WhatsApp message is deleted has it totally gone? Can it be recovered by experts. Same for text messages. Is it gone is gone or what?

Thanks. I’m just interested,

[Evanivitch]

Thankyou4calling said:

Access all the information on your phone if they “Seize it?

I only ask promoted by the shooting of a rapper thread, no personal issues honest!

If the police or ANOther get your phone can they get past the PIN protected lock screen? I seem to recall some years ago that an alleged terrorists phone was inaccessible without help from him.

Also, again just being nosy, when a WhatsApp message is deleted has it totally gone? Can it be recovered by experts. Same for text messages. Is it gone is gone or what?

Thanks. I’m just interested,

If the data is encrypted then it's near impossible to access the information held without the access key.

You are legally required to provide the access key if under investigation.

There are some cases where hardware hacks have been used to access encrypted data, but most of them are outdated and so the spiralling battle between security and "safety" continues.

The UK government neither understand encryption nor do they like WhatsApp.

[JulianHJ]

Evanivitch said:

If the data is encrypted then it's near impossible to access the information held without the access key.

There are ways and means...

Evanivitch said:

You are legally required to provide the access key if under investigation.

Section 49 RIPA is a long and under-utilised process, requires CPS support and as such doesn't tend to see many successful prosecutions; we could definitely do a better job with this.

Evanivitch said:

There are some cases where hardware hacks have been used to access encrypted data, but most of them are outdated and so the spiralling battle between security and "safety" continues.

Cellebrite and Grayshift are the biggest players in the market, and are very capable.

Evanivitch said:

The UK government neither understand encryption nor do they like WhatsApp.

Depends on who in government you're talking about.

Edited by JulianHJ on Sunday 18th September 09:33

[Miserablegit]

Indeed- I think you’ll find many of our dodgy MP’s swear by the use of WhatsApp

[Tony1963]

Miserablegit said:

Indeed- I think you’ll find many of our dodgy MP’s swear by the use of WhatsApp

I work on U.K. military aircraft, and a few months ago our work chat groups went from WhatsApp to Signal.

[Evanivitch]

Tony1963 said:

I work on U.K. military aircraft, and a few months ago our work chat groups went from WhatsApp to Signal.

Yep. If someone says WhatsApp today in government it's just a generic term for a message group. It's going to be Signal.

[Evanivitch]

JulianHJ said:

Evanivitch said:

If the data is encrypted then it's near impossible to access the information held without the access key.

There are ways and means...

There are workarounds, sure. But by no means is anyone breaking encryption.

JulianHJ said:

Section 49 RIPA is a long and under-utilised process, requires CPS support and as such doesn't tend to see many successful prosecutions; we could definitely do a better job with this.

Sure, but it exists and usually it's strong arm enough to require people to cooperate.

JulianHJ said:

Cellebrite and Grayshift are the biggest players in the market, and are very capable.

Depending on the hardware, sure. Criminals aren't known for always having the latest and greatest iPhone (quite a large overhead on burner phones...) or particular knowledge of the differences in hardware and software encryption.

JulianHJ said:

Depends on who in government you're talking about.

At least 3 of the last 5 home secretaries.

[paul.deitch]

Fascinating topic. Do the comments here from people in the know mean that mobile phone are not at all secure?

[Evanivitch]

paul.deitch said:

Fascinating topic. Do the comments here from people in the know mean that mobile phone are not at all secure?

No 'system' (which includes hardware, software and humans) is entirely secure, it's a constantly evolving battle.

When you talk about "mobile phones" you're talking about millions of different combinations and configurations of hardware and software.

If you wanted to use mobile phones purely for secure communications then you would have to ensure everyone in your "group" was doing the same thing and following the same rules.

[bitchstewie]

paul.deitch said:

Fascinating topic. Do the comments here from people in the know mean that mobile phone are not at all secure?

I think the question should be secure from who?

[Thankyou4calling]

So another question, police take phone demand my 4 digit PIN.

Sorry I can’t remember it!

Short of going all Inspector Regan on me and bashing me up can they crack it.

Local cops or does it need like MI5

[Evanivitch]

Thankyou4calling said:

So another question, police take phone demand my 4 digit PIN.

Sorry I can’t remember it!

Short of going all Inspector Regan on me and bashing me up can they crack it.

Local cops or does it need like MI5

Can't "remember" it? 2-5 years prison sentence.

[anonymous-user]

Thankyou4calling said:

So another question, police take phone demand my 4 digit PIN.

Sorry I can’t remember it!

Short of going all Inspector Regan on me and bashing me up can they crack it.

Local cops or does it need like MI5

Yes, under S49 RIPA the code can be demanded. The last time you used the phone can be easily proven by acquiring data under the investigatory powers act and that can be presented to court for them to decide if you forgetting your code is viable.

As pointed out earlier, there are lots of companies which make software to crack devices, GrayKey being one of the more popular. There are then many other methods that can be used depending which agency is investigating you. As you move from police/NCA into the security services other options become viable and it all comes down to if the cost is worth the reward. As Evanivich said, anything can be de coded given the time and money.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 18th September 11:58

[98elise]

Thankyou4calling said:

So another question, police take phone demand my 4 digit PIN.

Sorry I can’t remember it!

Short of going all Inspector Regan on me and bashing me up can they crack it.

Local cops or does it need like MI5

I used to work here (seriously)....



Let me make a few calls and I'll let you know how secure your phone is...



















Only kidding. I did work there but not everyone works on the intelligence side!

[LordHaveMurci]

98elise said:

I used to work here (seriously)....



Let me make a few calls and I'll let you know how secure your phone is...


Every office needs a cleaner
















Only kidding. I did work there but not everyone works on the intelligence side!

[anonymous-user]

Wasn't there a case where the FBI wanted to get into an Apple phone and Apple refused but they still got into it anyway after some time? Think it was a terrorist/shooting incident.

[anonymous-user]

pocketspring said:

Wasn't there a case where the FBI wanted to get into an Apple phone and Apple refused but they still got into it anyway after some time? Think it was a terrorist/shooting incident.

A very simplistic summary was that the FBI were looking at a phone and were in the process of extracting data. They tried to speed the process up by demanding Apple help them reverse engineer the encryption but Apple refused as they stated security of their devices is one of their USPs and by doing that it would set a precedent on other offences and organisations requesting the same and it would inherently reduce the security for all Apple customers.

[98elise]

LordHaveMurci said:

98elise said:

I used to work here (seriously)....



Let me make a few calls and I'll let you know how secure your phone is...



















Only kidding. I did work there but not everyone works on the intelligence side!

Every office needs a cleaner

Not far from the truth!

As you say it's still an office block and needs the same support staff any office or organisation does....

....or maybe that's my cover story

Edited by 98elise on Sunday 18th September 20:18

[Dr Jekyll]

No, cover stories are always 'I work in the pensions dept, it's all very boring'. Of course in the old days it was 'SIS? what's that? I work for the foreign office research dept.' But that was before they moved to the most impressive office block in London in order to avoid attention.

[voyds9]

I think police powers can be too far ranging in the UK.

You assault someone, police search your phone to see if premediatated, you also get done for the evidence that you grow cannabis plants.

You take photos of police station, the police demand your name, you refuse. Now I'm stopping you under Section 1 as you have a backpack you may be going equipped so I'm searching you. Oh look here is your wallett with your name. Thank you, you are free to go now.