Damage and no public indemnity insurance
Discussion
Hi all, long time since posting in here, but would appreciate any advice offered...
A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the Environment Agency need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the Environment Agency need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
Edited by _Dan_ on Wednesday 21st September 13:27
So many things to consider here.....but ultimately I think the house owner would not only have to prove that the gardener caused the damage, but also that the oil supply pipe was installed in accordance with OFTEC requirements, which from memory would need it to be buried 450mm into the ground....
To hit the pipe whilst only strimming grass at the surface was surely an accident just waiting to happen......are we sure he wasn't doing any digging.....as that would be completely different....
To hit the pipe whilst only strimming grass at the surface was surely an accident just waiting to happen......are we sure he wasn't doing any digging.....as that would be completely different....
Jaguar99 said:
How does the homeowner know that the strimming damaged the pipe?
What is the pipe made of and what sort of strummer? (ie Is what the homeowner is suggesting actually feasible?)
My questions exactly! It's a big petrol strimmer with heavy duty wire apparently, and it might have been the plastic level pipe damaged, I'm unsure. I suppose soft and then copper tubing could also be damaged by one of these. I can't see how they can prove that it didn't happen in the 48 hours after he left the property. Also, shouldn't the homeowner warn of vulnerable/danger areas to the gardener before the work is carried out?What is the pipe made of and what sort of strummer? (ie Is what the homeowner is suggesting actually feasible?)
Edited by _Dan_ on Tuesday 20th September 15:10
MattyD803 said:
To hit the pipe whilst only strimming grass at the surface was surely an accident just waiting to happen......are we sure he wasn't doing any digging.....as that would be completely different....
Certainly not digging, it was a strimming only job. I think the damage happened to the pipe as it leaves the tank._Dan_ said:
Hi all, long time since posting in here, but would appreciate any advice offered...
A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the EPA need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
The gardener simply needs to respond "prove it" to any questioning or threats from officialdom. Then, as nobody will be able to, he should forget about it and get on with his life.A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the EPA need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
Sounds like your friend would have acknowledged the damage at the time had it occured, therefore whilst it is a shame to hear that the homeowner is having problems unfortunately he is unable to accept responsibility for it.....
I've got an oil drum here and whilst the pipe coming out of the ground is thin I can't imagine a strimmer line (presumably plastic?) would even dent it, but that's by the by.
Burden of proof is on the homeowner, and absent CCTV etc confirming it then I would say he is on a hiding to nothing in terms of blaming your friend. Wouldn't stop him pursuing a small claim, but I wouldn't think it would go anywhere.
I've got an oil drum here and whilst the pipe coming out of the ground is thin I can't imagine a strimmer line (presumably plastic?) would even dent it, but that's by the by.
Burden of proof is on the homeowner, and absent CCTV etc confirming it then I would say he is on a hiding to nothing in terms of blaming your friend. Wouldn't stop him pursuing a small claim, but I wouldn't think it would go anywhere.
r3g said:
_Dan_ said:
Hi all, long time since posting in here, but would appreciate any advice offered...
A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the EPA need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
The gardener simply needs to respond "prove it" to any questioning or threats from officialdom. Then, as nobody will be able to, he should forget about it and get on with his life.A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the EPA need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
I would also ensure that he keeps a sample of the strimmer wire, plus a note of the equipment he was using on the day. Potentially useful evidence in proving whether it would be possible to cause the damage that is alleged.
Also a good idea to get him to write a full detailed statement about the entire matter whilst it's still fresh.
R56Cooper said:
Yep, I would add to that, advise him to preserve any documents and evidence that relate to the matter. The potential claimant has 6 years to bring a claim so it might be a long time before he can say for certain that he is out of the woods.
I would also ensure that he keeps a sample of the strimmer wire, plus a note of the equipment he was using on the day. Potentially useful evidence in proving whether it would be possible to cause the damage that is alleged.
Also a good idea to get him to write a full detailed statement about the entire matter whilst it's still fresh.
^ ThisI would also ensure that he keeps a sample of the strimmer wire, plus a note of the equipment he was using on the day. Potentially useful evidence in proving whether it would be possible to cause the damage that is alleged.
Also a good idea to get him to write a full detailed statement about the entire matter whilst it's still fresh.
This is pure speculation but could it not also be possible that the leak happened in a corroded pipe (assuming metal and not plastic) and the strimming merely exposed the area of soil that had been soaked with the oil? I think at this stage and with the evidence that we have so far, I'd definitely be in the 'prove it' camp and wouldn't be rolling over without a fight.
_Dan_ said:
Hi all, long time since posting in here, but would appreciate any advice offered...
A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the EPA need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
Is this in England? As it is the Environment Agency (EA) in England and I wouldn't worry about them. They are so far behind from Covid they won't have time to look at minor household issues like this. A gardener friend of mine did some strimming work recently, and a couple of days later got a call from the homeowner saying he'd apparently strimmed through the domestic oil pipe, and that oil has leaked into the ground. Now the EPA need to check the ground, house foundations etc etc and potentially treat it, there is also a stream nearby it may have entered.
The gardener in question is a sole trader and unfortunately doesn't have any public indemnity insurance (I realise this was naive, but too late now). He has worked himself up into quite a panic about the potential repercussions, envisioning his van and tools being taken away and losing his house and livelihood, all down to an accident he's not even sure he did. The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
My questions are, how might this play out, and what advice if any (other than, "should have had insurance!") can anybody offer?
Many thanks
In Scotland it is the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (SEPA). They are even further behind and had a data hack back in 2020 resulting in a loss of a lot of systems. They are still catching up re-creating their licensing system....a "production facility" I sometimes support was asked to supply back a copy of their discharge licence and samples to prove compliance as SEPA had lost the records for that site.
The EPA - Environmental Protection Agency is in America. Get the house declared as a Superfund site and the US Government will pay for it. e.g. see the famous case of Love Canal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal
Though I think the homeowner is trying it on to get their aged oil piping system and cost of lost oil paid for by the gardener. I'd love to see a strimmer that could go through an oil pipe, even plastic. Bushwhacker maybe, but a strimmer that could go through and oil pipe, nah, it would be going through Gardners steelies and we don't see hoards of untoed gardeners hobbling about. Tell homeowner to do one and advise them not to turn their taps on as that will suck explosive oil up from under their house and set fire to their kitchen / hair in the shower.
Allegro_Snapon said:
Is this in England? As it is the Environment Agency (EA) in England and I wouldn't worry about them. They are so far behind from Covid they won't have time to look at minor household issues like this.
Thanks for the reply. It's in Wales, sorry, got my acronyms confused! _Dan_ said:
The homeowner does have house insurance, and has contacted them, and passed on the gardener's details.
The fact the homeowner has insurance doesn't affect the situation. Their insurance company has the same "rights" against the gardener as the home owner.If they choose to pursue the source of the damage they will send the severed pipe to an expert for analysis and if the report comes back saying "looks like a fresh cut by a strimmer or similar" then the game is on.
Further points,
- The homeowner's insurance policy may say they should check that any contractor working at the property has liability insurance, and if they didn't check the insurer may be off the hook.
- If the gardener isn't worth suing he isn't worth suing and people wouldn't waste time on it. But it's easy enough to check whether, for instance, he owns his own house or lives hand-to-mouth in a rental.
_Dan_ said:
Allegro_Snapon said:
Is this in England? As it is the Environment Agency (EA) in England and I wouldn't worry about them. They are so far behind from Covid they won't have time to look at minor household issues like this.
Thanks for the reply. It's in Wales, sorry, got my acronyms confused! 
Unfortunately if the pipe is sheered it’s going to come down on a balance of probability that the strummer caused the damage as it’s a civil matter. Working on other peoples property without PII is a disaster waiting to happen but the old adage of not being able to get blood out of a stone holds true.
The most likely outcome is the Insurance Company will have to pay to rectify the contamination and will look to the trader for costs.
The most likely outcome is the Insurance Company will have to pay to rectify the contamination and will look to the trader for costs.
Are you sure it was just a strimmer and not a brush cutter? Even a commercial strimmer wouldn't cut through a plastic pipe let alone a copper one. A brush cutter though , although looking similar instead of wire can be fitted with a cutting disc type blade which need a lot more care in use...
Draxindustries1 said:
Are you sure it was just a strimmer and not a brush cutter? Even a commercial strimmer wouldn't cut through a plastic pipe let alone a copper one. A brush cutter though , although looking similar instead of wire can be fitted with a cutting disc type blade which need a lot more care in use...
I have a stihl, it would cut a plastic pipe very easily, 2.5mm line seems to cut anything.Does he have any legal expenses insurance on any insurance? They may be able to assist in Defending a claim if so
If I am going against an individual (my job is to make such claims) with no insurance, i would perform a Land Registry check to see if that Defendants owns their property. Would probably not bother if they did not have any assets.
If I am going against an individual (my job is to make such claims) with no insurance, i would perform a Land Registry check to see if that Defendants owns their property. Would probably not bother if they did not have any assets.
Draxindustries1 said:
Are you sure it was just a strimmer and not a brush cutter? Even a commercial strimmer wouldn't cut through a plastic pipe let alone a copper one. A brush cutter though , although looking similar instead of wire can be fitted with a cutting disc type blade which need a lot more care in use...
Yes just a stihl bump head with heavy duty nylon I believeSydneyBridge said:
Does he have any legal expenses insurance on any insurance? They may be able to assist in Defending a claim if so
If I am going against an individual (my job is to make such claims) with no insurance, i would perform a Land Registry check to see if that Defendants owns their property. Would probably not bother if they did not have any assets.
Good shout, I'll get him to check his commercial van insurance or similar. He does not own a property, he rents, and financially lives very much week to weekIf I am going against an individual (my job is to make such claims) with no insurance, i would perform a Land Registry check to see if that Defendants owns their property. Would probably not bother if they did not have any assets.
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