Schools 20MPH When Lights Are Flashing

[Tannedbaldhead]

This sign was outside every school in Scotland not so long ago.
Was a great example of common sense in Action.
20mph limit in force when required, 30mph or even 40mph depending on road type rest of day.
I assumed this was universal till about 7 years ago I was stopped in either Co Durham or around Newcastle (memory is of Geordie sounding officers).
Had been doing 25-30 passed a school but did so late evening rather than when the school was open.
Police asked if I hadn't noticed the limit changed at the school and I replied "yes, but, the lights weren't flashing".
One officer looked puzzled the other said he'd seen those signs when visiting inlaws in Edinburgh.
Both embarked on a conversation between themselves about what a good idea that was, pausing to chase me on my way with a "watch what you're doing down here".
Thought about it for first time in years after reading the "how many times have you been stopped thead".
Question is, back then, was the 20mph limit when light flash a Scottish thing or were they around in other parts of UK.

[carl_w]

We have them outside some schools round here. A good idea IMHO.

[vaud]

Have some locally (England) but they are advisory rather than mandatory (plain sign)

I thinks some are mandatory but it requires a TRO.

They are common sense, just like the variable dates for no parking outside a school.

They are a very good idea and common sense. One local school has a 40 zone past it which seems way too high

[Rusty Old-Banger]

Flashing lights on a 20 would be advisory. Would be very difficult to write a fully enforceable, part-time TRO based on the presence of flashing lights.

PS I say this as someone who writes TROs for a living.

Edited by Rusty Old-Banger on Thursday 1st January 18:20

[sixor8]

They are on a main road by a school near me, 20 mph. Been there ages, they on a triangular sign, with lights. so advisory. People do tend to observe them though, although they are set to flash at the same time every weekday, even during school holidays, so it reduces the effectiveness.

[vaud]

True but schools often have holiday clubs, etc so I think it remains a good reminder.

[vaud]

Rusty Old-Banger said:

Flashing lights on a 20 would be advisory. Would be very difficult to write a fully enforceable, part-time TRO based on the presence of flashing lights.

Here’s one near me - 20 as an advisory.

[TonyRPH]

vaud said:

Here s one near me - 20 as an advisory.

Is that a green circle around the 20?

EDIT: Had another look at the image and I think it's a black circle? If so, it's mandatory.

A new green circle has been introduced to signify it's advisory.

Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 1st January 12:07

[vaud]

Black circle is advisory / "an order" (no points)
Red circle is mandatory

Green circles aren't mentioned in the DfT standards https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-yo...

[TonyRPH]

I hold my hand up - back to the theory for me.

I thought the black circle was mandatory, and was only black because of the sign layout, and I thought that only rectangular signs were advisory.

I found this:

somesite said:

What the "Black Circle" Sign Means (Usually):

Advisory Speed: If you see black numbers (like "40") inside a white circle with a red border, but also signs before it with just black numbers (or maybe a black circle/sign indicating camera use), the black signs are warnings that the enforceable 40 mph limit is coming soon, but the black signs themselves aren't the law.
Context is Key: Always look for the red border – that's the legally binding limit. Black signs are informational or advisory, guiding you to the real speed restriction

Some info on the green circle

[ashenfie]

Seams the standard generally now is 20mph with no lights. Many villages now have the 20 sign and no school.

I am for the lights approach, but simply having 20mph sign seams a nonsense and have very a low rate of being observed. Rather than common sense they seem to be doubling down on the enforcement.

[Plus4Four#]

We have flashing signs near several schools, activated twice daily. One local school has a road closure except for authorised vehicles at these times. Signs stating details of times etc. No big deal as the alternative route is actually better.
A 24hr non light activated 20 limit is illogical. I used to pass a small rural school ( now closed but a day nursery instead) with a fixed 20. Finished work at midnight, no traffic. It's in a 30 that within yards goes back up to a 40 then 50. If there are after school events then the flashing light version is far more sensible as the lights get activated to suit.

[vaud]

TonyRPH said:

Some info on the green circle

Thanks. What confuses me is why they aren’t in the dft signs list.

[eldar]

ashenfie said:

Seams the standard generally now is 20mph with no lights. Many villages now have the 20 sign and no school.

I am for the lights approach, but simply having 20mph sign seams a nonsense and have very a low rate of being observed. Rather than common sense they seem to be doubling down on the enforcement.

There used to be several in Cumbria about 20 years ago. The school controlled turn on/off.

The vast majority of drivers observed the sign, I guess maybe it was only active when needed, so seen as sensible.

They were removed about 12 years ago, no idea why.

[TonyRPH]

vaud said:

Thanks. What confuses me is why they aren't in the dft signs list.

Same here.

I'm feeling a bit foolish about the black circle sign. I knew it was mandatory when the lights were flashing.

I never even thought of it as being advisory when the lights are off - I just took it for granted that the 'normal' (for that stretch of road) speed limit applied.

It does of course make sense that it's discretionary when the lights are off though.

[norscot]

Still at a school near here in a 40. Great idea, immediately raises your awareness that this is the time when kids are running about. Tends to get observed reasonably well, although I do sometimes get tailgated when I slow down towards 20.

By contrast a large chunk of a nearby town that was 30 and is now 20, is treated with disdain and resented and or ignored by pretty much everyone.

[paul_c123]

TonyRPH said:

Some info on the green circle

In theory its possible to have the road correctly signed, with (for example) 20 in a green circle sign (advisory, unenforceable) and alongside it, 30 in a red circle sign (the actual DfT enforceable speed limit sign).

Its a bit like motorway service stations where all the signs look vaguely similar but the colour scheme is the branding of the service station operator.

[TheInternet]

vaud said:

TonyRPH said:

Some info on the green circle

Thanks. What confuses me is why they aren t in the dft signs list.

Because they are a terrible idea for colour blind people?

[vaud]

Ahh... someone did an FOI:

"I can advise that the signs referred to have no legal standing, they
indicate an advisory 20mph maximum speed.

They have not specifically been authorised by the DfT, however advisory
maximum speed signs are included in the Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions 2002.

I trust that we have answered your queries, however if you have any
further questions please do not hesitate to contact us."

also

"The sign you refer to was installed by the London Borough of Enfield for their Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN)."

[48k]

TonyRPH said:

vaud said:

Here s one near me - 20 as an advisory.

Is that a green circle around the 20?

EDIT: Had another look at the image and I think it's a black circle? If so, it's mandatory.

A new green circle has been introduced to signify it's advisory.

Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 1st January 12:07

Pop quiz... are we in the national limit for another 300 yards or just about to enter a 30 zone?