would this be shoplifting/theft?
Discussion
I recently ordered some camping supplies from a well-known french purveyor of sporting goods, as a "click and collect" order from one of their physical stores. I don't live particularly near one of their shops, but was going to be passing one a few days after the order was meant to be ready.
I turn up, and the order "isn't in the shop". The shop physically had stock of the items, in their normal "sell to a punter on the street" kind of way, but I wasn't allowed to have those, as they weren't the internet order. They weren't able to cancel the order and let me buy the items in the shop with the same payment method (a gift card), so I left empty handed.
I was tempted to just pick the items up from the shelf and walk out with them, but as I'm not one for trouble I instead chose to email a complaint and ask them to refund my gift card instead (they can't do that, as the order hasn't left their warehouse), but I was wondering whether this would actually have been theft? There's no suggestion that I hadn't paid in full for the goods, but does it matter which instance of a thing you obtain?
I turn up, and the order "isn't in the shop". The shop physically had stock of the items, in their normal "sell to a punter on the street" kind of way, but I wasn't allowed to have those, as they weren't the internet order. They weren't able to cancel the order and let me buy the items in the shop with the same payment method (a gift card), so I left empty handed.
I was tempted to just pick the items up from the shelf and walk out with them, but as I'm not one for trouble I instead chose to email a complaint and ask them to refund my gift card instead (they can't do that, as the order hasn't left their warehouse), but I was wondering whether this would actually have been theft? There's no suggestion that I hadn't paid in full for the goods, but does it matter which instance of a thing you obtain?
5lab said:
I wasn't allowed to have those, as they weren't the internet order.
This bit seems odd to me but its not the main focus of your thread.5lab said:
They weren't able to cancel the order and let me buy the items in the shop with the same payment method (a gift card),
If the online process accepts (that) gift card(s) and the in-store process doesn't, then yes its shoplifting. But again, it seems odd the store can't accept what the online can.I forget the shop now, but someone posted the other day that the online version of the shop is a separate company.
Maybe that's a common thing - if so, then you taking stuff from the physical shop would be legally isolated, so would be theft.
If the items should have been there and you still want them, I'd lean on them to ship them to you FOC.
Maybe that's a common thing - if so, then you taking stuff from the physical shop would be legally isolated, so would be theft.
If the items should have been there and you still want them, I'd lean on them to ship them to you FOC.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Monday 1st June 21:06
If you spoke to staff and explained that you believed you were lawfully entitled to walk out with the item as you;d paid for it on line then don't believe you've committed theft and would be a civil matter, however if after leaving you cancelled your on line payment within fourteen days then believe you would commit an ofence of obtaining property by deception..
Suprised the store weren't able to assist you on the day with an in stock item, Polite e mail to their head of customer services required.
Suprised the store weren't able to assist you on the day with an in stock item, Polite e mail to their head of customer services required.
BertBert said:
It wasn't that the shop didn't accept gift cards, the shop couldn't process the refund
Are you sure? The full sentence I quoted is vaguely worded, it could be interpreted 3 different ways:1. They weren't able to cancel the order. They let me buy the items in the shop with the same payment method (a gift card),
2. They weren't able to (cancel the order; and let me buy the items in the shop) (gift card is irrelevant).
3. They might have been able to cancel the order. They would have let me buy the items in the shop but for the fact the payment method was a gift card, which they don't accept.
3 might have another variation: they accept gift cards, but because this particular gift card has already been used on a pending order, it is "spent".
The gift card definitely complicates things. Also, a shop may simply not have the authority to cancel a "click and collect" order willy-nilly. They either fulfil it, have the customer cancel it, let it time out, have some other department/section of the company cancel it, or have to put a reason to cancel it such as stocking error. In theory, the OP could have cancelled the order, but the gift card might not have re-credited or it might have has to have been re-issued as another different gift card of the equivalent amount, a process that might have taken time (like, 2-3 days for example, not 5-10 mins while in a store).
If the OP has just used cash, or had more gift cards (and the shop accepted them), it could have easily been a non-issue. Or if the shop had been able to just hand the one off the shelf and make an internal adjustment, etc.
to be clear, the gift cards are all digital, so can be reimbursed, you can use them instore but mine had £0 balance at this point, as i'd spent it all on the online order. Because they can't cancel the order (still can't, and in fact cant tell me when the item will be posted to the store so they can cancel it..) I can't re-use that balance for anything else, be it in store or online. If they could have cancelled it, and refund me, I could have bought the items there and then. Its all a bloody fiasco.
the website has no button to cancel the order, the shop could have reached out to the "online team" but they didn't work on sundays, and when I reached them today, that team can't cancel the order as it hasn't yet been dispatched, and they don't know when it will be.
regarding the company structure, from what I can see all the UK shops (including the internet) are under "Pentathlon UK Limited" - I can't find any other names and I don't believe there's anything like franchises going on.
the website has no button to cancel the order, the shop could have reached out to the "online team" but they didn't work on sundays, and when I reached them today, that team can't cancel the order as it hasn't yet been dispatched, and they don't know when it will be.
regarding the company structure, from what I can see all the UK shops (including the internet) are under "Pentathlon UK Limited" - I can't find any other names and I don't believe there's anything like franchises going on.
Edited by 5lab on Monday 1st June 23:08
I'd say this is fairly standard these days as online shops run as a separate entity with much wider range of products including marketplace items. The local store probably gets a token amount per collection / return handled.
Its poor though, the manager should probably have done something for you given you'd been notified the items were available to collect and had travelled. They should have a a direct line somewhere to escalate issues.
Its poor though, the manager should probably have done something for you given you'd been notified the items were available to collect and had travelled. They should have a a direct line somewhere to escalate issues.
I'm surprised by this as it's poor planning in my opinion. If you said you wanted to pick it up in a specific store I would first check the store inventory and if it's available I would take it from there and then hold it for your collection. This avoids an unnecessary transport and simplifies the process. I presume their systems don't support this but they should.
It isn't theft because there is no dishonesty, therefore the offence cannot be made out despite what the uneducated populus of the internet will try and tell you on here.
You could argue the semantics of what you believed and what the shop believed you were entitled to until the cows come home, but this detail is all within the civil dispute remit of a transaction you had paid for and the retailer could not satisfactorily facilitate, dishonesty would be required for any theft to be made out, and in this case it is absent.
You could argue the semantics of what you believed and what the shop believed you were entitled to until the cows come home, but this detail is all within the civil dispute remit of a transaction you had paid for and the retailer could not satisfactorily facilitate, dishonesty would be required for any theft to be made out, and in this case it is absent.
Ubiquitous2024 said:
It isn't theft because there is no dishonesty, therefore the offence cannot be made out despite what the uneducated populus of the internet will try and tell you on here.
You could argue the semantics of what you believed and what the shop believed you were entitled to until the cows come home, but this detail is all within the civil dispute remit of a transaction you had paid for and the retailer could not satisfactorily facilitate, dishonesty would be required for any theft to be made out, and in this case it is absent.
The OP's order is in the post. He's not entitled to go into the store and help himself to a similar item. You could argue the semantics of what you believed and what the shop believed you were entitled to until the cows come home, but this detail is all within the civil dispute remit of a transaction you had paid for and the retailer could not satisfactorily facilitate, dishonesty would be required for any theft to be made out, and in this case it is absent.
alone wolf said:
You didn't tell us the shop?
The shop is a two-day track and field competition comprising 10 distinct disciplines.I ordered a folding bike from them years ago, and instead of clicking and collecting the sales clerk spent 10 minutes inputting all my data and order in again. I left a review saying that the procedure was cack and much like the French auto industry. To their credit the UK director of ops called me up for an explanation. I said that every other car maker would make a clip to hold a brake line in place, whereas a French automaker would think they are smart and mould a clip into the brake line, so you would need to break the brake line and reinstall a new one every time you replaced the exhaust.
All seems a bit odd, especially as the order was being fulfilled from the physical shops own stock and not from
their main warehouse … seems like a bug in the system that the ‘take stuff off the self’ task wasn’t allocated / completed.
I use click and collect online only to check the stock … if there’s a decent amount I go and get it myself off the shelf. No separate queue / looking for 10 mins to find it / not having some obscure ID they require. Hardware shops near me even give the shelf / rack location.
their main warehouse … seems like a bug in the system that the ‘take stuff off the self’ task wasn’t allocated / completed.
I use click and collect online only to check the stock … if there’s a decent amount I go and get it myself off the shelf. No separate queue / looking for 10 mins to find it / not having some obscure ID they require. Hardware shops near me even give the shelf / rack location.
All seems a bit odd, especially as the order was being fulfilled from the physical shops own stock and not from
their main warehouse … seems like a bug in the system that the ‘take stuff off the self’ task wasn’t allocated / completed.
I use click and collect online only to check the stock … if there’s a decent amount I go and get it myself off the shelf. No separate queue / looking for 10 mins to find it / not having some obscure ID they require. Hardware shops near me even give the shelf / rack location.
their main warehouse … seems like a bug in the system that the ‘take stuff off the self’ task wasn’t allocated / completed.
I use click and collect online only to check the stock … if there’s a decent amount I go and get it myself off the shelf. No separate queue / looking for 10 mins to find it / not having some obscure ID they require. Hardware shops near me even give the shelf / rack location.
5lab said:
regarding the company structure, from what I can see all the UK shops (including the internet) are under "Pentathlon UK Limited" - I can't find any other names and I don't believe there's anything like franchises going on.
I think you've got the name wrong. See below. The one you mention is a different company which was dissolved 4 weeks ago.vikingaero said:
alone wolf said:
You didn't tell us the shop?
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