Letter in this week's Stratford Herald re speeding
Discussion
There's an interesting letter in this week's Stratford paper. It seems to show how the average person is now feeling about speed traps.
letter said:
Guilty? I wonder. I have just been found guilty of speeding at 35mph. The number of real baddies seems to be increasing. As a pensioner I suppose I am an easy target.
My gripe is the police, who write and tell me they are not doing it to raise funds, and say I was travelling south when in actual fact I was travelling north. If the policeman hiding in the van doesn't know the difference between north and south, does he have the intelligence to calibrate the speed camera?
A local solicitor informs me that the police can get it wrong and not be held responsible.
It aggravates and alienates, when there are two sets of rules, one for the police, and one for the "others". Human nature being what it is, I feel I wouldn't help the police if they needed me.
This may wear off in time. To question the police in court, I'm told, will only cost me more money. It is a case of pay up and shut up.
Peter Ward said:
There's an interesting letter in this week's Stratford paper. It seems to show how the average person is now feeling about speed traps. letter said:
Guilty? I wonder. I have just been found guilty of speeding at 35mph. The number of real baddies seems to be increasing. As a pensioner I suppose I am an easy target.
My gripe is the police, who write and tell me they are not doing it to raise funds, and say I was travelling south when in actual fact I was travelling north. If the policeman hiding in the van doesn't know the difference between north and south, does he have the intelligence to calibrate the speed camera?
A local solicitor informs me that the police can get it wrong and not be held responsible.
It aggravates and alienates, when there are two sets of rules, one for the police, and one for the "others". Human nature being what it is, I feel I wouldn't help the police if they needed me.
This may wear off in time. To question the police in court, I'm told, will only cost me more money. It is a case of pay up and shut up.
...and the scamera businesses will say he must be guilty as he hasn't challenged the prosecution...
Hollywood Wheels said:
I feel I wouldn't help the police if they needed me.
Why? Because one traffic officer gave you a ticket? Very strange attitude and one i never understand. Fine, don't offer your 'help' to the Police then, it's your community that will suffer......
It's the government destroying the image of the police. When a BIB is seen to represent a corrupt system such as speed control then they are seen as being to blame (as willing agents of the system). It's human nature.
Hollywood Wheels - fuelled by newspaper claims of lack of responsiveness and action by the police, especially if the victim is an IC1; perceived pre-eminence of political correctness over crime-fighting; ever-growing reliance on scameras to raise cash, and consequent reduction in helpful and considerate TrafPol; reports of insolence and agressiveness by (certain) BiB; over-jealous application of enforcement legislation (e.g. AT2000) in wholly inappropriate circumstances (and on TV too!); repeated apologies for not providing "the service expected" (and paid for!), without any improvement in that "service" ... the police are being alienated from the public (note that I say "being alienated"
.
References to Joe Public as being "customers" do not help. Most of "Middle England" would see scrotes as the "customers" of the police force (sorry, "service" ) ... they see themselves as generally law-abiding citizens who want the police to arrest wrong-doers and the courts to lock them up, and for the law and police to provide protection against arrest and imprisonment for defending their lives and property.
There will always be individuals with a sob story, and there will always be the media to publish it. For example, five teenagers (at least one with a "history" ) steal a car, race around at speeds of 100mph, crash it and die. On what does the media focus? On whether there was a police car chasing them at the time of the crash! FFS!
"Bad guys arrested, not many skulls broken" doesn't sell newspapers.
Streaky
. References to Joe Public as being "customers" do not help. Most of "Middle England" would see scrotes as the "customers" of the police force (sorry, "service" ) ... they see themselves as generally law-abiding citizens who want the police to arrest wrong-doers and the courts to lock them up, and for the law and police to provide protection against arrest and imprisonment for defending their lives and property.
There will always be individuals with a sob story, and there will always be the media to publish it. For example, five teenagers (at least one with a "history" ) steal a car, race around at speeds of 100mph, crash it and die. On what does the media focus? On whether there was a police car chasing them at the time of the crash! FFS!
"Bad guys arrested, not many skulls broken" doesn't sell newspapers.
Streaky
Hollywood Wheels said:
I feel I wouldn't help the police if they needed me.
Because if the BiB had stopped him, politely pointed out that he was exceeding the limit etc. etc. & to keep his eye on the limit in future etc. I'm sure that he would have respected the BiB & continued to offer them support. To be fined & receive points for what may have been perfectly safe driving for the conditions, when a quite word would have sufficed, does unfortunately alienate drivers from the Police.
It works both ways, if a driver goes out of his/her way to assist the Police, they expect a sensible approach to minor infringements of the law, when no harm was likely to be caused.
The Police are seen to be party to revenue raising scams, rather than tackling the issues that the public express more concern about. As such, human nature being what it is, people will sadly turn against the Police.
On several occasions this year, I have witnessed what I am sure was deliberate obstruction of Police vehicles on Motorways.
With the increase in Camera Partnerships etc. which the public know is just revenue raising hidden under a very thin veneer of "Safety", this situation is only going to get worse & you are correct in saying that communities will suffer as a result.
One solution, which has been discussed many times here before, is to get rid of the Vans/Cameras which are located purely to raise revunue & increase the amount of TrafPol who can use their discretion & not just impose fines/points on drivers who in the main are law abbiding citizens, for minor infringments of speed limits.
The feeling is that you can now drive dangerously, in unsafe vehicles etc. etc. but these drivers escape prosecution unless they are caught for exceeding the speed limit.
>> Edited by A57 HSV on Thursday 3rd November 11:52
I am sure that something along these lines has been posted before.....
Last night I had to ride down lower thames street towards blackfriars and the SPECs cameras. Traffic was moving at the indicated 20mph!
Behind me was a police car with blues and twos on. I managed to move out of the way as I was on a bike, but there was not enough room for the cars to move over. No-one - and I mean no-one - was prepared to speed up to get to the end of the road where they could safely move out of the way - too scared of getting points on their licence.
I have no idea what the police car was going to attend, but I hope they made it there in time, and no-one suffered, all because of what speed cameras (and the fear of them) are doing to people's ability to follow common sense.
Last night I had to ride down lower thames street towards blackfriars and the SPECs cameras. Traffic was moving at the indicated 20mph!
Behind me was a police car with blues and twos on. I managed to move out of the way as I was on a bike, but there was not enough room for the cars to move over. No-one - and I mean no-one - was prepared to speed up to get to the end of the road where they could safely move out of the way - too scared of getting points on their licence.
I have no idea what the police car was going to attend, but I hope they made it there in time, and no-one suffered, all because of what speed cameras (and the fear of them) are doing to people's ability to follow common sense.
A57 HSV said:
I feel I wouldn't help the police if they needed me.
Because if the BiB had stopped him, politely pointed out that he was exceeding the limit etc. etc. & to keep his eye on the limit in future etc. I'm sure that he would have respected the BiB & continued to offer them support. To be fined & receive points for what may have been perfectly safe driving for the conditions, when a quite word would have sufficed, does unfortunately alienate drivers from the Police.
It works both ways, if a driver goes out of his/her way to assist the Police, they expect a sensible approach to minor infringements of the law, when no harm was likely to be caused.
The Police are seen to be party to revenue raising scams, rather than tackling the issues that the public express more concern about. As such, human nature being what it is, people will sadly turn against the Police.
On several occasions this year, I have witnessed what I am sure was deliberate obstruction of Police vehicles on Motorways.
With the increase in Camera Partnerships etc. which the public know is just revenue raising hidden under a very thin veneer of "Safety", this situation is only going to get worse & you are correct in saying that communities will suffer as a result.
One solution, which has been discussed many times here before, is to get rid of the Vans/Cameras which are located purely to raise revunue & increase the amount of TrafPol who can use their discretion & not just impose fines/points on drivers who in the main are law abbiding citizens, for minor infringments of speed limits.
The feeling is that you can now drive dangerously, in unsafe vehicles etc. etc. but these drivers escape prosecution unless they are caught for exceeding the speed limit.
>> Edited by A57 HSV on Thursday 3rd November 11:52
Guys, we really are all singing from the same hymn sheet here, and that's the point i was making. This guy was done by ONE traffic Officer. I couldn't (and wouldn't) stick people on for doing 35 in a 30. Same reason i'm very careful with my 'attitude' when dealing with the public, if i'm rude or arrogant that's just another potentially supportive voice lost, who will only ever remember the time they were pulled over by the di**head copper....
But i disagree that it's human nature to make sweeping generalisations because of ONE bad experience. It's just sheer ignorance and there isn't any excuse for it. Say i arrest a black person for assault. Does this then give me the right to put posts on the internet about hating black people because they're all violent thugs? Of course not. A bit of an extreme example i know, but you can see what i'm getting at. As many of you point on regularly on this forum, it's the SENIOR MANAGEMENT of this 'Service' who are responsible, NOT the 'bobby on the beat' (God i hate that phrase!)
To suggest that i should rebel or strike or refuse to support the system in place is all well and good, but please tell me, who will pay my mortgage? I hope every day that this will change, and we can go back to real Policing. We all know who is committing the crime, it's being given the resources to deal with them that's the problem. The HUGE majority of crime in this country is committed by a tiny minority of hardcore offenders. So why on earth are Police hiding behind bushes catching Mr and Mrs taxpayer?! I don't understand it, but hey, i'm just a P.C.
Just try to remember guys, for every one idiot overzealous copper you meet, there are hundreds of great ones that you never will (like me for instance.......
But i disagree that it's human nature to make sweeping generalisations because of ONE bad experience. It's just sheer ignorance and there isn't any excuse for it. Say i arrest a black person for assault. Does this then give me the right to put posts on the internet about hating black people because they're all violent thugs? Of course not. A bit of an extreme example i know, but you can see what i'm getting at. As many of you point on regularly on this forum, it's the SENIOR MANAGEMENT of this 'Service' who are responsible, NOT the 'bobby on the beat' (God i hate that phrase!)
To suggest that i should rebel or strike or refuse to support the system in place is all well and good, but please tell me, who will pay my mortgage? I hope every day that this will change, and we can go back to real Policing. We all know who is committing the crime, it's being given the resources to deal with them that's the problem. The HUGE majority of crime in this country is committed by a tiny minority of hardcore offenders. So why on earth are Police hiding behind bushes catching Mr and Mrs taxpayer?! I don't understand it, but hey, i'm just a P.C.
Just try to remember guys, for every one idiot overzealous copper you meet, there are hundreds of great ones that you never will (like me for instance..
..... Hollywood Wheels, I hope you don't think I put this letter on the forum to get at the police. Rather, I think the letter is an indication of what "the man in the street" (and in this case a pensioner) feels about what's happening.
This person (name and address not published, but I assume male) clearly sees the speed trap and the associated paperwork as being operated by the police, not a Partnership. This may of course be because it's the police force's details that are on the NIP's letterhead.
His letter also includes frustration that the NIP mis-stated his direction of travel yet this is considered unimportant for the prosecution, and that going to court to protest will likely result in a higher penalty. The latter point is of course strongly made on the NIP, while the former one is painful when you consider how many people get off much more serious charges on technicalities.
Possibly the biggest single thing that the police could do to prevent the erosion of support is to remove themselves from the Partnerships. Failing that, they could at least stop NIPs being sent out on police letterhead. Somehow the police need to bail out of the Partnerships as they sink before they too are dragged down.
This person (name and address not published, but I assume male) clearly sees the speed trap and the associated paperwork as being operated by the police, not a Partnership. This may of course be because it's the police force's details that are on the NIP's letterhead.
His letter also includes frustration that the NIP mis-stated his direction of travel yet this is considered unimportant for the prosecution, and that going to court to protest will likely result in a higher penalty. The latter point is of course strongly made on the NIP, while the former one is painful when you consider how many people get off much more serious charges on technicalities.
Possibly the biggest single thing that the police could do to prevent the erosion of support is to remove themselves from the Partnerships. Failing that, they could at least stop NIPs being sent out on police letterhead. Somehow the police need to bail out of the Partnerships as they sink before they too are dragged down.
Hollywood Wheels said:
I feel I wouldn't help the police if they needed me.
Taken, however I think the view on the 'other side' of the police line is something very different. Apart from the maybe few hundred thousand of the populace that are lawbreakers, the other 59.5 million people go out of their way to not break the law, not only because they would get punished but also because is is a 'wrong thing to do'.
Out of that 59.5 million a big chunk are honest taxpayers who will never have a brush with the law, it is not in their nature. In fact, I for one who has been one who has fought to help the police on behalf of the community and would support any action which would protect the law abiding future of myself, my family and my community.
I have felt part of the police system as I have helped support it in every way. Unfortunately, myself and others, who would be the most staunch supporter of the legal system are being dealt with as criminals if they drive perfectly safely, but marginally above a stated or implied speed limit. Even if they are innocent, they are warned against the financial consequences of excercising their right to a fair hearing, and either have to pay under duress, or fight against the system which is there to protect them.
I took this as a kick in the teeth by what I thought was one of my friends. If one of my friends did this to me, not only would I no longer be a friend I would be watching my back, and would want eyes in the back of my head so I wasnt kicked again.
Unfortunately, the police and the system are not portrayed as individuals, they have the same uniform, the same cars and are all there to administer the same system that has kicked millions of people in the teeth already.
It is a sad state of affairs, but I for one now panic to check my speed and general road position as soon as a see the markings of a police car. I wouldnt mind having this paranoia if I was a criminal, running from the law, but I am not. I just feel like it.
Hollywood Wheels said:
Guys, we really are all singing from the same hymn sheet here, and that's the point i was making. This guy was done by ONE traffic Officer. I couldn't (and wouldn't) stick people on for doing 35 in a 30. Same reason i'm very careful with my 'attitude' when dealing with the public, if i'm rude or arrogant that's just another potentially supportive voice lost, who will only ever remember the time they were pulled over by the di**head copper....
But i disagree that it's human nature to make sweeping generalisations because of ONE bad experience. It's just sheer ignorance and there isn't any excuse for it. Say i arrest a black person for assault. Does this then give me the right to put posts on the internet about hating black people because they're all violent thugs? Of course not. A bit of an extreme example i know, but you can see what i'm getting at. As many of you point on regularly on this forum, it's the SENIOR MANAGEMENT of this 'Service' who are responsible, NOT the 'bobby on the beat' (God i hate that phrase!)
To suggest that i should rebel or strike or refuse to support the system in place is all well and good, but please tell me, who will pay my mortgage? I hope every day that this will change, and we can go back to real Policing. We all know who is committing the crime, it's being given the resources to deal with them that's the problem. The HUGE majority of crime in this country is committed by a tiny minority of hardcore offenders. So why on earth are Police hiding behind bushes catching Mr and Mrs taxpayer?! I don't understand it, but hey, i'm just a P.C.
Just try to remember guys, for every one idiot overzealous copper you meet, there are hundreds of great ones that you never will (like me for instance..
I agree with you, but unfortunately Human Nature is not based on rational thought. One bad experience/impression is all it takes.
As an example, if you had food poisoning from a meal eaten in a restaurant that you had never been to before, would you return? Probably not & you wouldn't reccomend that restaurant to your friends either.
Now it could be that the food in that restaurant is normally outstanding, but on the day you visited all the chefs were ill & the owner asked his friend to cook!
Unfortunately, the motorist notices the Camera Vans hidden behind bushes & the Gatso's on dead straight sections of road & rightly or wrongly associate these with the Police.
The Motorist/Police relationship must be at an all time low. A sad consequence of the misguided approach of raising revenue from motorists whilst pretending to make the roads safer.
I find it very sad & another b**ls up, that this Govnt. will be remembered for.
But it's not just in motoring laws that our police service is being used as tools of the political masters. They are used to impliment political correctness in many spheres.
To return to the motoring aspect, however, it's clear that the Blair gov't has declared war on drivers and are using the Police Service and other agencies to fulfil their dream of a subdued and 'under-control' population. The main fear in the overall driving experience used to be the avoidance of accidents. Now the main fear is getting points, fines and bans. The police service is seen, for right or wrong, to be a part of this situation and for the average officer it's not a pleasant position to be in. Like most of us they have their families to look after and provide for and cannot, in career terms, afford to 'swim in the opposite direction' by opposing the dictats of gov't passed down by their Chief Constables.
Soon, surely, the drivers will start to fight back. This has started with the 'trashing' of the hated cameras and the support for this from people you would not expect it from. Even my wife laughed when we passed two burned out Gatso in 10 miles a couple of weeks ago, commenting "well, they won't be collecting any more cash". This from a 58 year old grandmother with a clean licence and 22 years NCB.
If Mr. Average is becoming disenchanted with the police service it's not just because of the cash-cameras. It's because of the trivial things the ordinary officers are ordered to address on a day-to-day basis.
To give an example, a few years ago ther was a telephone call to a local police station reporting that someone seemed to hanging around at a school gate and was thought to be attempting to deal drugs. The senior officer in charge said that no-one was available to attend. A few days later there was speed camera on a dual-carriageway at about the same time of day. Lack of resources? No, lack of proper direction and application of manpower to the thing Mr. Average deems important.
How can the average Police Officer act to persuade those in charge to take the correct view and act accordingly? It would, one supposes, be very difficult.
To return to the motoring aspect, however, it's clear that the Blair gov't has declared war on drivers and are using the Police Service and other agencies to fulfil their dream of a subdued and 'under-control' population. The main fear in the overall driving experience used to be the avoidance of accidents. Now the main fear is getting points, fines and bans. The police service is seen, for right or wrong, to be a part of this situation and for the average officer it's not a pleasant position to be in. Like most of us they have their families to look after and provide for and cannot, in career terms, afford to 'swim in the opposite direction' by opposing the dictats of gov't passed down by their Chief Constables.
Soon, surely, the drivers will start to fight back. This has started with the 'trashing' of the hated cameras and the support for this from people you would not expect it from. Even my wife laughed when we passed two burned out Gatso in 10 miles a couple of weeks ago, commenting "well, they won't be collecting any more cash". This from a 58 year old grandmother with a clean licence and 22 years NCB.
If Mr. Average is becoming disenchanted with the police service it's not just because of the cash-cameras. It's because of the trivial things the ordinary officers are ordered to address on a day-to-day basis.
To give an example, a few years ago ther was a telephone call to a local police station reporting that someone seemed to hanging around at a school gate and was thought to be attempting to deal drugs. The senior officer in charge said that no-one was available to attend. A few days later there was speed camera on a dual-carriageway at about the same time of day. Lack of resources? No, lack of proper direction and application of manpower to the thing Mr. Average deems important.
How can the average Police Officer act to persuade those in charge to take the correct view and act accordingly? It would, one supposes, be very difficult.
Im intrigued by this.
Are you saying Hollywood Wheels that there is NO way you can voice your discontent with policy at all?
You argue that your mortgage is maybe at risk if you were to raise the point about not being in support of scamera activities, and its a valid point indeed, but im afraid youre just as much a victim of "policy" here as the rest of us, mortgage or not, we all get screwed over by this scam.
The scamera system has eroded support for the police on a massive scale, by turning millions of ordinary folk into criminals, just so "the partners" (of which the police ARE one) can raise millions of pounds of cash, so its little wonder that tempers flare and attitudes harden against you guys when youre perceived (and rightly so im sorry to say) as "the enemy", hence youre now a victim of this scam too.
I feel that if officers DID come out and say what they felt about the Brunstrums( god i hate that prat) of this world then someone, somewhere would sit up and take note, instead of just carrying on regardless.
You guys have as much of a part to play in getting common sense laws accepted by the public as have the public themselves.
At the end of the day its either stand together (whatever happens) or let "policy" and those idiots guiding it just crush everyone into the ground.
Rocks and hard places spring to mind, the question is : What are you going to do about it?
Are you saying Hollywood Wheels that there is NO way you can voice your discontent with policy at all?
You argue that your mortgage is maybe at risk if you were to raise the point about not being in support of scamera activities, and its a valid point indeed, but im afraid youre just as much a victim of "policy" here as the rest of us, mortgage or not, we all get screwed over by this scam.
The scamera system has eroded support for the police on a massive scale, by turning millions of ordinary folk into criminals, just so "the partners" (of which the police ARE one) can raise millions of pounds of cash, so its little wonder that tempers flare and attitudes harden against you guys when youre perceived (and rightly so im sorry to say) as "the enemy", hence youre now a victim of this scam too.
I feel that if officers DID come out and say what they felt about the Brunstrums( god i hate that prat) of this world then someone, somewhere would sit up and take note, instead of just carrying on regardless.
You guys have as much of a part to play in getting common sense laws accepted by the public as have the public themselves.
At the end of the day its either stand together (whatever happens) or let "policy" and those idiots guiding it just crush everyone into the ground.
Rocks and hard places spring to mind, the question is : What are you going to do about it?
deltafox said:
I feel that if officers DID come out and say what they felt about the Brunstrums
Indeed, if the public stop paying FPN's and take it to court - more courts will be given more resources, if the public start burning more 'Scameras' more scameras will be replaced and more surveillance given them, in short whatever the public do will be met with more force, more fines, more bans, more custodials etc using the Police to do the dirty work as neccessary. 
However if a large proportion of Police stood up to this incompetent, self serving, corrupt government they might listen to them.... catso said:
I feel that if officers DID come out and say what they felt about the Brunstrums
There is something each one of us can do. We are lucky enough to live in a democracy. If you feel that an injustice is being done you can present the evidence to your Member of Parliament who can investigate it and bring such issues in the house of commons.
The other thing is, if you dont like the government who has seen the proliferation of speed cameras and speed traps grow ten times, dont vote for them next time.
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