Snow, plod and the law
Discussion
Here we go again. In the last few days parts of England have their first falls of snow and people have to be rescued!
So question - If I get caught up in some nasty weather that is causing problems how far can one go to rescue ones self?
i.e. The problems last year on the M11 - where people got stuck over night - would it have been OK to use the hard shoulder if your car had traction where others didn't?? Or reverse off to a nearby junction?
Sure all things seem crazy but then so does spending 10hours in the car at sub zero temperatures - would a valid defence in court be that you lost faith in authority and fended for yourself.
This situation with snow in the UK is becoming a joke - is it time to make "winter" tyres compulsory from Novemeber to end of Feb??
So question - If I get caught up in some nasty weather that is causing problems how far can one go to rescue ones self?
i.e. The problems last year on the M11 - where people got stuck over night - would it have been OK to use the hard shoulder if your car had traction where others didn't?? Or reverse off to a nearby junction?
Sure all things seem crazy but then so does spending 10hours in the car at sub zero temperatures - would a valid defence in court be that you lost faith in authority and fended for yourself.
This situation with snow in the UK is becoming a joke - is it time to make "winter" tyres compulsory from Novemeber to end of Feb??
Why on Earth would you want to make winter tyres compulsory. The problems we have with the small amounts of snow we get in this country is just that - the small amounts of snow. The average driver doesn't ever get to drive in snow normally and the sheer volumes of traffic on our roads now means that we are inevitably going to have problems when we get any levels of snow. Winter tyres won't stop hills and main roads getting glazed in heavy snow and the traffic will just grind to a halt anyway. Unless you have studded tyres then nothing will really help and studded tyres are not the answer either as they ruin the road surfaces and who wants to pay more road tax to repair them.
It snows, the traffic stops, live with it.
It snows, the traffic stops, live with it.
The only people to advocate winter tyres in the UK will be tyre companies and judging by Michelin's site, it looks like a few 'graduates' (those will 'little' - read 'no' - experience of the real world) have got jobs here - just been reading their website. Totally laughable.
Heres a sample
Why use winter tyres ? "Advice from Bibendum"
A road is always less predictable in winter than in hot weather; irrespective of whether it's snowy, icy or just wet, the surface always gives relatively less grip than in summer.
Because of the specific form of a winter tyre, which is designed to displace the water passing under the tyre, a winter tyre reduces the risk of aquaplaning.
A winter tyre gives much better adherence and excellent traction, because it has a deeper tread than a summer tyre. In fact, the tread of a winter tyre has many more sipes than that of a summer tyre, for better grip on snow. A winter tyre is made of special silica rubber compounds, which are better adapted to the cold and enable better braking.
Remember :
Always remember that an icy road
Is twice as slippery as a snowy road;
Is 4 times more slippery than a wet road or one that is covered with melting snow;
Is 8 times more slippery than a dry road.
Oh dear me, and the rest on the site is just as stupid.
Heres a sample
Why use winter tyres ? "Advice from Bibendum"
A road is always less predictable in winter than in hot weather; irrespective of whether it's snowy, icy or just wet, the surface always gives relatively less grip than in summer.
Because of the specific form of a winter tyre, which is designed to displace the water passing under the tyre, a winter tyre reduces the risk of aquaplaning.
A winter tyre gives much better adherence and excellent traction, because it has a deeper tread than a summer tyre. In fact, the tread of a winter tyre has many more sipes than that of a summer tyre, for better grip on snow. A winter tyre is made of special silica rubber compounds, which are better adapted to the cold and enable better braking.
Remember :
Always remember that an icy road
Is twice as slippery as a snowy road;
Is 4 times more slippery than a wet road or one that is covered with melting snow;
Is 8 times more slippery than a dry road.
Oh dear me, and the rest on the site is just as stupid.
Cooperman said:
Why on Earth would you want to make winter tyres compulsory. The problems we have with the small amounts of snow we get in this country is just that - the small amounts of snow. The average driver doesn't ever get to drive in snow normally and the sheer volumes of traffic on our roads now means that we are inevitably going to have problems when we get any levels of snow. Winter tyres won't stop hills and main roads getting glazed in heavy snow and the traffic will just grind to a halt anyway. Unless you have studded tyres then nothing will really help and studded tyres are not the answer either as they ruin the road surfaces and who wants to pay more road tax to repair them.
It snows, the traffic stops, live with it.
Difficult call tbh.
On the one hand I agree totally with Cooperman's viewpoint.
On the other hand a large amount of problems these days are caused by the crazy tyres we run these days. Wide , low profile, tread designs which resemble hand cut slicks, traction and temperature rating that mean they are all but useless in snow.
Packed and polished ice yes only spikes will really help and many motorists driving style does mean they really do need to get a grip of themselves.
This morning I just drove into base, no problem even on some high level roads on packed and polished ice. The traction control activated once pulling away on an uphill TL controlled junction.
The same trip in my last car on Continetal Speedcontact2s would have been nigh on impossible I bet.
I always question the gritters running schedules.
Sometimes they run twice over a road in a day and it doesn't snow, then the next day it snows and no gritters!?
Guess this is the cost of ever increasing commuting distances and such. I remember two years ago being sat for 1 hour between Harewood and Collingham as the road hadn't been gritted or ploughed and at 8am it was just compacted. The other roads were fine, but that quite heavy usage main road was just like ice... It wasn't snowing either, they just hadn't cleared it over the night, and now in the morning it was too late as it was jammed up with traffic!
Just blame the people you pay £1000's of a year to run services for you. They are doing it really badly. Thing is though, they don't say sorry or admit it's their fault, they blame people for using their bloody cars!!! Argghh!
Dave
Sometimes they run twice over a road in a day and it doesn't snow, then the next day it snows and no gritters!?
Guess this is the cost of ever increasing commuting distances and such. I remember two years ago being sat for 1 hour between Harewood and Collingham as the road hadn't been gritted or ploughed and at 8am it was just compacted. The other roads were fine, but that quite heavy usage main road was just like ice... It wasn't snowing either, they just hadn't cleared it over the night, and now in the morning it was too late as it was jammed up with traffic!
Just blame the people you pay £1000's of a year to run services for you. They are doing it really badly. Thing is though, they don't say sorry or admit it's their fault, they blame people for using their bloody cars!!! Argghh!
Dave
Another angle on this thread is have Plod the right to commandeer people's 4x4's to use as a rescue vehicles? I read somewhere they were doing this on Bodmin Moor last week. I would first demand how I stood with insurance and repair to any damage caused by them etc and I'd want it in writing. Also rent I would want to some charge rent. Also what would happen to me while they were having fun in my 4x4, would I be stuck in some bloody village hall when I could get myself home? I would just activate the alarms and imobilizer and chuck my keys away. Or am I being a tad uncooperative?
My tuppenceworth.
I live further north than the majority of posters on here and think I experience more snow than most over a year in the UK. To me, the biggest reason for problems on the roads is inexperienced drivers, with an added touch of stupidity. They simply do not think or change driving styles to suit the road conditions, be it wet/snow/ice or whatever. Nor do most listen to the TV or radio - is your journey really neccessary? The greater majority are lemmings who simply cannot think of alternatives to their regular daily trudge....
There is a time and place for snow tyres but I certainly would not advocate their compulsory use. I agree with the studded tyre scenario but again, impractical in reality.
Gritting and snow. Contrary to popular misconception, salt and grit does not clear snow. All it does is prevent or reduce the formation of ice on the roadsurface. If you look/test/recall, all that happens is you get a nice wee hole in the snow, about an inch or so, that is created when the chrystal passes through. The grit element does not by itself aid traction (think of the forrest stages of a road rally!!). Most gritters run according to computer predictions as to road temperature etc. There are sensors at strategic points around the roads to advise roads authorities in conjunction with met office reports.
All in all, there is no substitute really for experience and, until that experience is gained, we have to accept the consequencial spin off of bad driving, stuck vehicles and the like.
I live further north than the majority of posters on here and think I experience more snow than most over a year in the UK. To me, the biggest reason for problems on the roads is inexperienced drivers, with an added touch of stupidity. They simply do not think or change driving styles to suit the road conditions, be it wet/snow/ice or whatever. Nor do most listen to the TV or radio - is your journey really neccessary? The greater majority are lemmings who simply cannot think of alternatives to their regular daily trudge....
There is a time and place for snow tyres but I certainly would not advocate their compulsory use. I agree with the studded tyre scenario but again, impractical in reality.
Gritting and snow. Contrary to popular misconception, salt and grit does not clear snow. All it does is prevent or reduce the formation of ice on the roadsurface. If you look/test/recall, all that happens is you get a nice wee hole in the snow, about an inch or so, that is created when the chrystal passes through. The grit element does not by itself aid traction (think of the forrest stages of a road rally!!). Most gritters run according to computer predictions as to road temperature etc. There are sensors at strategic points around the roads to advise roads authorities in conjunction with met office reports.
All in all, there is no substitute really for experience and, until that experience is gained, we have to accept the consequencial spin off of bad driving, stuck vehicles and the like.
outrider said:
Another angle on this thread is have Plod the right to commandeer people's 4x4's to use as a rescue vehicles? I read somewhere they were doing this on Bodmin Moor last week. I would first demand how I stood with insurance and repair to any damage caused by them etc and I'd want it in writing. Also rent I would want to some charge rent. Also what would happen to me while they were having fun in my 4x4, would I be stuck in some bloody village hall when I could get myself home? I would just activate the alarms and imobilizer and chuck my keys away. Or am I being a tad uncooperative?
Nah, I'd feel the same these days.
The police now (not their fault, but powers from above) put them across as seedy (covering up real info from the guy who was shot on the tube), gun happy (man with table leg), and overly concerned with not responding to people when they are burgled, and seem happy to defend the scrotes when you stand up to them, but do you for GBH for protecting yourself.
Then we have the silly laws they uphold now. Scamera vans doing you where it's clearly totally safe. Then there is the two sided laws. They get to speed and drive around faster than the limit without blues and two's and think they are above the law.
Then, all of a sudden, they want public support?
Ironic that greenies and lefties hate 4x4's yet the police in this case found them invaluable. Why not give police 4x4's if they need them? Would it appear un-pc? Are the police just hypocrites? Government against 4x4's yet here are the police saving people using other people's 4x4's who "shouldn't" have them?
It's a good job they bloody did have these big 4x4's isn't it.
I for one would tell them to go spin. If our government can't even spend money and organise the police enough to be effective without using OUR cars, then fook them! This is a perfect example of the government getting it their way whichever way the wind is blowing. Fook us over for owning 4x4's, then use our 4x4's when the situation dictates and expect us to happily oblidge?
Cnuts
Dave
outrider said:
Another angle on this thread is have Plod the right to commandeer people's 4x4's to use as a rescue vehicles? I read somewhere they were doing this on Bodmin Moor last week. I would first demand how I stood with insurance and repair to any damage caused by them etc and I'd want it in writing. Also rent I would want to some charge rent. Also what would happen to me while they were having fun in my 4x4, would I be stuck in some bloody village hall when I could get myself home? I would just activate the alarms and imobilizer and chuck my keys away. Or am I being a tad uncooperative?
"You can use my car but I'm driving" - then you get to go offroading and be a hero rescuing a damsel in distress. Then she takes off all her clothes and "thanks" you and then......... perhaps not.
In answer to the original question, I think you should stay away from the hard shoulder unless you are simply going past an obstacle such as a crashed or broken down car on the carriageway.
How can you be 100% sure that you will have traction and won’t end up blocking the hard shoulder and then blocking the emergency services?
How can you be 100% sure that you will have traction and won’t end up blocking the hard shoulder and then blocking the emergency services?
_dobbo_ said:
Another angle on this thread is have Plod the right to commandeer people's 4x4's to use as a rescue vehicles? I read somewhere they were doing this on Bodmin Moor last week. I would first demand how I stood with insurance and repair to any damage caused by them etc and I'd want it in writing. Also rent I would want to some charge rent. Also what would happen to me while they were having fun in my 4x4, would I be stuck in some bloody village hall when I could get myself home? I would just activate the alarms and imobilizer and chuck my keys away. Or am I being a tad uncooperative?
"You can use my car but I'm driving" - then you get to go offroading and be a hero rescuing a damsel in distress.
If the Police take your car then the Chief Constable's insurance covers it. However if you drive it yourself then you wouldn't be covered and your own insurance company would probably refuse to pay out as your policy won't cover 'use on Police business'.
Don't know how far the Police would push it, but *I think* they can insist that you hand over the vehicle.
_dobbo_ said:
Another angle on this thread is have Plod the right to commandeer people's 4x4's to use as a rescue vehicles? I read somewhere they were doing this on Bodmin Moor last week. I would first demand how I stood with insurance and repair to any damage caused by them etc and I'd want it in writing. Also rent I would want to some charge rent. Also what would happen to me while they were having fun in my 4x4, would I be stuck in some bloody village hall when I could get myself home? I would just activate the alarms and imobilizer and chuck my keys away. Or am I being a tad uncooperative?
"You can use my car but I'm driving" - then you get to go offroading and be a hero rescuing a damsel in distress. Then she takes off all her clothes and "thanks" you and then......... perhaps not.
and then.......catches influenza
dandarez said:
The only people to advocate winter tyres in the UK will be tyre companies and judging by Michelin's site, it looks like a few 'graduates' (those will 'little' - read 'no' - experience of the real world) have got jobs here - just been reading their website. Totally laughable.
Dandarez, the only people who are against winter tyres are people who know relatively little about driving in winter conditions! Every winter when I travel to GB I see the idiotic numpties (and professionals) trying to keep their pride and joy sunny side up because they've bought cheap and nasty summer tyres (which lose over 50% of their gripping power at temperatures under 7°C), and then have problems when 0.1mm of snow/frost hits the roads!!!
Ask all the people who see me driving around past all the numpties in the ditch (me in a Porsche) without any problem at all........ I'd advise you to actually try driving with winter tyres on GBs roads before you start making seemingly uneducated comments!
I have to drive on some relatively remote and wild roads on my travels and if I see the snow warnings I really do have to take it seriously, If i was to get stuck it could be for hours.
My tyres, Toyo T1-Rs 45 section are not much use in the cold but I cannot afford another set for just now.
Therefore in my car boot from now until March are my Hiking boots, Ski trousers and sleeping bag, in addition to my Hi-Vis vest and full jacket that are always there.
I also make sure I have food and drink in the car before every journey, and adapt my driving to conditions.
This is better than legislation IMO, but if I could afford a set of Pirelli or Michelin winter tyres I would get them.
My tyres, Toyo T1-Rs 45 section are not much use in the cold but I cannot afford another set for just now.
Therefore in my car boot from now until March are my Hiking boots, Ski trousers and sleeping bag, in addition to my Hi-Vis vest and full jacket that are always there.
I also make sure I have food and drink in the car before every journey, and adapt my driving to conditions.
This is better than legislation IMO, but if I could afford a set of Pirelli or Michelin winter tyres I would get them.
Mrwhippy said:
The police now (not their fault, but powers from above) put them across as seedy (covering up real info from the guy who was shot on the tube), gun happy (man with table leg).
Mr Whippy, I don't know if you personally believe the above statements but I would ask you politely to reconsider or edit them. I personally know of the circumstances in one of those incidents and all I will say is the version in the Press is nowhere near close to the truth. On both occasions, someone like you and I, did what they though was right because they thought that themselves and others were going to die. There is no element of 'gun happy' I can assure you.
Thanks.
Scott
KB_S1 said:
I have to drive on some relatively remote and wild roads on my travels and if I see the snow warnings I really do have to take it seriously, If i was to get stuck it could be for hours.
My tyres, Toyo T1-Rs 45 section are not much use in the cold but I cannot afford another set for just now.
Therefore in my car boot from now until March are my Hiking boots, Ski trousers and sleeping bag, in addition to my Hi-Vis vest and full jacket that are always there.
I also make sure I have food and drink in the car before every journey, and adapt my driving to conditions.
This is better than legislation IMO, but if I could afford a set of Pirelli or Michelin winter tyres I would get them.
Try a pair of these: www.autosock.co.uk
No idea if they work, but I'd be interested to know!
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