I think he is screwed - what do you think?
Discussion
A guy my girlfriend works with had a NIP sent through to him recently, which he admitted was him driving and he received fixed £60 and 3 points.
Within the last two years he had already received 3 points.
He has now received a letter stating along the lines of he has lost his licence, and will need to re-apply for provisional licence, and retake test. (sorry I have not got the exact facts).
Obviously it is 6 points within first two years of passing test - or whatever the new law is. This guy is not a kid, a 30+ year old bloke, that did not think about this rule when he received the NIP - as I am sure he would have not been sure of who was driving if he had!
Now he is due to lose his job, as he requires car for his job.
I have told girlfriend to point him in direction of Pepipoo to see if anything can be done, but I suspect that this law is cut and dry if 6 points received within the period. I assume it is not like me reaching 12 points and pleading hardship etc?
Either way, in my opinion, it goes to show how naive/not clued up people are with regards to points etc, and have no idea that there are other options rather than just signing a NIP.
Does he have anywhere to go with this?
Within the last two years he had already received 3 points.
He has now received a letter stating along the lines of he has lost his licence, and will need to re-apply for provisional licence, and retake test. (sorry I have not got the exact facts).
Obviously it is 6 points within first two years of passing test - or whatever the new law is. This guy is not a kid, a 30+ year old bloke, that did not think about this rule when he received the NIP - as I am sure he would have not been sure of who was driving if he had!
Now he is due to lose his job, as he requires car for his job.
I have told girlfriend to point him in direction of Pepipoo to see if anything can be done, but I suspect that this law is cut and dry if 6 points received within the period. I assume it is not like me reaching 12 points and pleading hardship etc?
Either way, in my opinion, it goes to show how naive/not clued up people are with regards to points etc, and have no idea that there are other options rather than just signing a NIP.
Does he have anywhere to go with this?
yep. It's not the same as totting up. They just revoke the pass. From the DVLA website.
6. The Road Traffic ( New Drivers) Act 1995
This Act will affect you if you passed your first GB driving test after 1 June 1997 when it came into force. If the number of valid penalty points shown on your driving licence total 6 or more during the two year probationary period immediately following your first driving test, your full driving licence will be revoked by DVLA until such time as you pass a further driving test.
Such drivers should apply for a provisional driving licence if they wish to continue driving and are subject to "learner" conditions until they pass both theory and practical parts of the driving test.
Valid penalty points incurred prior to passing the first test are taken into account if the driver commits a penalty point offence during the probationary period. Points incurred after the probationary period has expired will also count if the offence was committed during the probationary period.
Full entitlement to all categories of vehicle previously held will only be reinstated upon passing a test in any one of the driver's previously held entitlements. A successful test for entitlement to a category of vehicle not previously held will result in a full licence for that category only.
There is no right of appeal against revocation under the provisions of the Act. A driver may only appeal against the conviction, which led to the revocation.
How to Apply for Your Licence After Revocation Under the New Drivers Act
To apply for a provisional driving licence you should complete a D1 form. Your application should be sent to DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1AB together with relevant original identity documents, a photograph as prescribed in the D1 form and the appropriate fee.
Full entitlement to all categories of vehicle held previously will be reinstated upon passing a test in any one of your original entitlements.
6. The Road Traffic ( New Drivers) Act 1995
This Act will affect you if you passed your first GB driving test after 1 June 1997 when it came into force. If the number of valid penalty points shown on your driving licence total 6 or more during the two year probationary period immediately following your first driving test, your full driving licence will be revoked by DVLA until such time as you pass a further driving test.
Such drivers should apply for a provisional driving licence if they wish to continue driving and are subject to "learner" conditions until they pass both theory and practical parts of the driving test.
Valid penalty points incurred prior to passing the first test are taken into account if the driver commits a penalty point offence during the probationary period. Points incurred after the probationary period has expired will also count if the offence was committed during the probationary period.
Full entitlement to all categories of vehicle previously held will only be reinstated upon passing a test in any one of the driver's previously held entitlements. A successful test for entitlement to a category of vehicle not previously held will result in a full licence for that category only.
There is no right of appeal against revocation under the provisions of the Act. A driver may only appeal against the conviction, which led to the revocation.
How to Apply for Your Licence After Revocation Under the New Drivers Act
To apply for a provisional driving licence you should complete a D1 form. Your application should be sent to DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1AB together with relevant original identity documents, a photograph as prescribed in the D1 form and the appropriate fee.
Full entitlement to all categories of vehicle held previously will be reinstated upon passing a test in any one of your original entitlements.
A question, and not meant to encourage illegal actions, but what would happen if he took his UK licence and went to live(?) in Ireland. He would still have the full U.K. licence, although it's technically not valid in the UK, and could 'trade it in' for a full Irish one under Euro-regulations so long as he had an Irish address. Then, in the UK he would have a full licence issued within the EU and valid within the EU. Although it might not be, technically, valid in the UK how would this be checked over here?
The point was made that it is not a legal disqual, merely a revocation of his U.K. licence until he passes another test. Maybe he could still drive quite legally on a foreign licence under international agreements.
Just a thought.
The point was made that it is not a legal disqual, merely a revocation of his U.K. licence until he passes another test. Maybe he could still drive quite legally on a foreign licence under international agreements.
Just a thought.
Problem is Cooperman he was booked. Producing the Eire Licence would mean that he would be given a skeleton record at DVLA for the points.
WOW what is this. This skeleton record is the same as a record of a bloke holding a UK driving Licence.
HOOT HOOT HOOT accompanied by claxton and hare off?????
dvd
WOW what is this. This skeleton record is the same as a record of a bloke holding a UK driving Licence.
HOOT HOOT HOOT accompanied by claxton and hare off?????
dvd
The more I think about this the more of a grey area it seems to be.
If you get 6 or more points in the UK within 2 years of passing your first test, then you are not disqualified, you are reduced to being a provisional licence holder.
However, if you held a full licence in another EU country, then you are deemed to hold a full licence valid throughout the EU unless you have been disqual by a court in one of the EU countries at which point you can't drive IN THAT COUNTRY.
If one held a provisional here, even with points on, there is nothing to prevent one from taking a test in another EU country and thus becoming qualified to drive in the UK, so long as a UK court has not disqualified one.
So, if just before the 6 points kicked in and the letter from the DVLA arrived the holder of the less than 2 year old licence went to S. Ireland, had an Irish address and swapped his full U.K. licence for a full Eire one, the degradation of the U.K. licence back to provisional would not really apply. If subsequently stopped in the UK the Eire licence would be valid here under EU legislation, whilst the charge of DWD could not be levied as that did not happen.
If I held a UK provisional and a full German licence, I could drive anywhere in the EU, or indeed in the World (inc. the UK) on my full German licence.
It's hard to see what any charge could be.
I don't know how true this is, but a Police Officer told me this story. Apparently a person who was to be disqualified for DD went to Eire before he got the summons, got a new address there, swapped his UK licence for an Eire one, then changed his name legally in Eire, swapped his Eire licence for one in his new name, came back to the UK and just carried on driving. He never came to court as he was 'out of the UK' when the summons was issued.
Sounds like a tightrope walk to me, but if disqual would seriously f*** up your life, wealth and business maybe, just maybe, it would be worth considering.
Now, DvD will tell me all the flaws in that, I'm sure. After all, it can't be that simple - or can it?
I have a personal friend who lives in Wales and who has held an Eire licence for the last 15 years. He just uses the address of an Irish buddy for his licence. He has never taken an Eire test, just swapped his UK licence. He was stopped at fairly high speed on the M4 a while back and, as his licence was foreign despite his being Welsh, he was just given a warning and allowed to go.
If you get 6 or more points in the UK within 2 years of passing your first test, then you are not disqualified, you are reduced to being a provisional licence holder.
However, if you held a full licence in another EU country, then you are deemed to hold a full licence valid throughout the EU unless you have been disqual by a court in one of the EU countries at which point you can't drive IN THAT COUNTRY.
If one held a provisional here, even with points on, there is nothing to prevent one from taking a test in another EU country and thus becoming qualified to drive in the UK, so long as a UK court has not disqualified one.
So, if just before the 6 points kicked in and the letter from the DVLA arrived the holder of the less than 2 year old licence went to S. Ireland, had an Irish address and swapped his full U.K. licence for a full Eire one, the degradation of the U.K. licence back to provisional would not really apply. If subsequently stopped in the UK the Eire licence would be valid here under EU legislation, whilst the charge of DWD could not be levied as that did not happen.
If I held a UK provisional and a full German licence, I could drive anywhere in the EU, or indeed in the World (inc. the UK) on my full German licence.
It's hard to see what any charge could be.
I don't know how true this is, but a Police Officer told me this story. Apparently a person who was to be disqualified for DD went to Eire before he got the summons, got a new address there, swapped his UK licence for an Eire one, then changed his name legally in Eire, swapped his Eire licence for one in his new name, came back to the UK and just carried on driving. He never came to court as he was 'out of the UK' when the summons was issued.
Sounds like a tightrope walk to me, but if disqual would seriously f*** up your life, wealth and business maybe, just maybe, it would be worth considering.
Now, DvD will tell me all the flaws in that, I'm sure. After all, it can't be that simple - or can it?
I have a personal friend who lives in Wales and who has held an Eire licence for the last 15 years. He just uses the address of an Irish buddy for his licence. He has never taken an Eire test, just swapped his UK licence. He was stopped at fairly high speed on the M4 a while back and, as his licence was foreign despite his being Welsh, he was just given a warning and allowed to go.
I think, but cannot confirm for I don't know the domestic law of the Country your going to swop you UK Licence in, but as far as UK is concerned I draw attention to section 102 RTA 88 :
A person is disqualified for obtaining a licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of any class so long as he is the holder of another Licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of a class, whether the licence is suspended or not.
One can see the reasoning for this and I would suspect that similar applies to various countries in the EEC and Eire.
The question of residency on a EEC Licence cannot be overlooked which would cover for a certain time and then a UK Licence has to be obtained.
Much simpler just to say F it and drive without one having paid a tenner for a banger? Not that I recommend this of course.
dvd
A person is disqualified for obtaining a licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of any class so long as he is the holder of another Licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of a class, whether the licence is suspended or not.
One can see the reasoning for this and I would suspect that similar applies to various countries in the EEC and Eire.
The question of residency on a EEC Licence cannot be overlooked which would cover for a certain time and then a UK Licence has to be obtained.
Much simpler just to say F it and drive without one having paid a tenner for a banger? Not that I recommend this of course.
dvd
I take your point, DvD, but if you move to another country within the EU, then it is not necessary to take a test there (Euro-Regulations confirm this). As far as I'm aware, you just present your UK full licence to the equivalent of the DVLA in the other country and they keep it and issue you with one of theirs. What they do with the UK one I don't know, maybe they just retain it, but you still only hold just one licence, so it's legal.
If you hold a full licence anywhere within the EU and have residency in one or more EU countries you can drive on the EU licence permanently.
My wife and I are thinking of buying some property in Eire as that's where her family are from. I will still keep my business interests in the UK, but as far as I can see, all I need to do is to register a branch of the company in, say, Dublin, and I can buy and use Eire registered vehicles anywhere in Europe. A vehicle registered in the EU can be used in any EU country and the old requirement to take it out of the country once eveery 6 months is almost impossible to police as the border controls are very lax. There must be no 'Artificial Barriers to Trade Within Europe' and that includes free movement of business assetts such as vehicles used by company directors.
I can also have an Eire licence. Thus, when in the UK I'll be virtually camera-proof, just as any foreign driver is, no matter what you hear or read elsewhere. It would not be cash-positive for the scammers to address this, so they won't.
Foreign vehicles are not targetted unless they are committing some serious motoring offence and I'm not advocating any failure to insure - all the UK insurers operate in Dublin anyway and NCB's can be transferred.
I can tell you this, I have a clean licence at present, but if I got to 6 points I would definately use my sister-in-laws address in Eire to obtain an Irish licence.
It's this scamming of the drivers from 'Middle England' which have caused this sort of thinking. Until the current attack on the driver started I would never have dreamed of thinking like this. I never thought that the possibility of disqualification for minor speeding offences, such as the normal police officer would not bother with, would cause such misery to professional drivers and their employers. Now we must all think of legal countermeasures to the scams, or even marginally illegal ones like broken or obscured number plates, if we have to drive really high mileages. That applies even to drivers who notionally obey speed limits, as they are now being caught at silly speeds like 35 in a 30 at 02-00 hours, etc, etc. No-one obeys all limits 100%, even you??
If you hold a full licence anywhere within the EU and have residency in one or more EU countries you can drive on the EU licence permanently.
My wife and I are thinking of buying some property in Eire as that's where her family are from. I will still keep my business interests in the UK, but as far as I can see, all I need to do is to register a branch of the company in, say, Dublin, and I can buy and use Eire registered vehicles anywhere in Europe. A vehicle registered in the EU can be used in any EU country and the old requirement to take it out of the country once eveery 6 months is almost impossible to police as the border controls are very lax. There must be no 'Artificial Barriers to Trade Within Europe' and that includes free movement of business assetts such as vehicles used by company directors.
I can also have an Eire licence. Thus, when in the UK I'll be virtually camera-proof, just as any foreign driver is, no matter what you hear or read elsewhere. It would not be cash-positive for the scammers to address this, so they won't.
Foreign vehicles are not targetted unless they are committing some serious motoring offence and I'm not advocating any failure to insure - all the UK insurers operate in Dublin anyway and NCB's can be transferred.
I can tell you this, I have a clean licence at present, but if I got to 6 points I would definately use my sister-in-laws address in Eire to obtain an Irish licence.
It's this scamming of the drivers from 'Middle England' which have caused this sort of thinking. Until the current attack on the driver started I would never have dreamed of thinking like this. I never thought that the possibility of disqualification for minor speeding offences, such as the normal police officer would not bother with, would cause such misery to professional drivers and their employers. Now we must all think of legal countermeasures to the scams, or even marginally illegal ones like broken or obscured number plates, if we have to drive really high mileages. That applies even to drivers who notionally obey speed limits, as they are now being caught at silly speeds like 35 in a 30 at 02-00 hours, etc, etc. No-one obeys all limits 100%, even you??
Coup de grace Cooperman:
Road Safety Bill coming to a town near you very, very shortly. Ohhh ohhh that'll stuff these speeding foreigners and blarney stone kissers.... (pog me thoign and all that bejessus)
... and in the fullness of time, shorly now, there will be a single EEC Licence with all transgressions recorded and details swapped and one disqualification active trueout de Community Patrick......
Like anything, the full application of the grey matter to a problem can come up with various scams to circumvent the system. However I am a firm believer (crosses ones self) that at the end of the day there is always a day or reckoning......
Your Eire connection: Ah Galway, the all Ireland champions, soda bread, Kerrygold butter, Little Chip marmalade, Barry's red Label tea, full Irish breakfast, the smell of burning turf on a spring morning.....
Tell your good lady to listen in on Radio MW 567 or LW 252 at 9 pm tonight (Sat) and roll the carpet back......(is there no end to the information I impart?)
Is there a spare room in the property you are purchasing??????
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 3rd December 08:13
Road Safety Bill coming to a town near you very, very shortly. Ohhh ohhh that'll stuff these speeding foreigners and blarney stone kissers.... (pog me thoign and all that bejessus)
... and in the fullness of time, shorly now, there will be a single EEC Licence with all transgressions recorded and details swapped and one disqualification active trueout de Community Patrick......
Like anything, the full application of the grey matter to a problem can come up with various scams to circumvent the system. However I am a firm believer (crosses ones self) that at the end of the day there is always a day or reckoning......
Your Eire connection: Ah Galway, the all Ireland champions, soda bread, Kerrygold butter, Little Chip marmalade, Barry's red Label tea, full Irish breakfast, the smell of burning turf on a spring morning.....
Tell your good lady to listen in on Radio MW 567 or LW 252 at 9 pm tonight (Sat) and roll the carpet back......(is there no end to the information I impart?)
Is there a spare room in the property you are purchasing??????
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 3rd December 08:13
Dwight VanDriver said:
Your Eire connection: Ah Galway, the all Ireland champions, soda bread, Kerrygold butter, Little Chip marmalade, Barry's red Label tea, full Irish breakfast, the smell of burning turf on a spring morning.....
DVD,
You missed off probably the most important thing on that list above .....
Tayto crisps
K
So let me understand this ....
I'm Irish, living the UK, have an Irish passport, but UK resident and UK driving license, UK registered car and UK insurance. I also have a legitimate Irish postal address (my folks).
If I changed my UK license for an Irish one (for nationalistic reasons) .... I would be immune from points, for general transgressions (31 in a 30 for example) [until they have a true central euro-license system].
Note: I'm not thinking of using this as an excuse for driving like a moron. Just curious.
K
I'm Irish, living the UK, have an Irish passport, but UK resident and UK driving license, UK registered car and UK insurance. I also have a legitimate Irish postal address (my folks).
If I changed my UK license for an Irish one (for nationalistic reasons) .... I would be immune from points, for general transgressions (31 in a 30 for example) [until they have a true central euro-license system].
Note: I'm not thinking of using this as an excuse for driving like a moron. Just curious.
K
Kinky
It would seem you have dual nationality?
Ok so you are resident in UK and hence have to have a UK Licence which I presume that you can use in Eire as a visitor sama sama Irish resident visiting UK.
So on one of your trips to that fair Isle you go the relevant Office in Dublin to exchange your UK Licence for an Irish one. Cannot help you as to what the procedure is there or enquiry as to status of being a resident/ visitor/scam artist to avoid points that would be made. Nevertheless you get one. I doubt very much that it will be issued contain a UK address so presumeably where your born or there abouts.
Back across the pool to Uk and you get flashed. If your vehicle is on Irish plates and hence Irish address for Keeper then SCP will disengage at the start as they have no provision for proceeding against the driver as non UK.But possibility exists of putting the vehicle number on certain records available to Plod for future reference.
If the vehicle is on UK plate then obviously the paperwork would go the RK who would have to go through the rigmaroll of naming the driver which may or may not end there.
Faced with the other scenario of a pull by Plod for speeding then basically he cannot give a Fixed Penalty Ticket as the procedure at present needs a UK Licence for endorsement but could get you to Court on a Summons if one could be served in UK. Having been found Guilty at Court and points awarded then two things happen. The first is that a skeleton Driving record is created at DVLC with those points at which time it may well disclose the fact that you already hold a UK Licence and an enquiry farmed out as to why you are operating on two Licences. Nefarious reasons heading the list. The second is that legislation either exists (I believe this is the case) or shortly to come into force that the sins in an EEC Country are forwarded to the issuing authority of the Driving Licence. Presumably this is in preparation of harmonisation of Motoring offences through the EEC. But not having an address for service of summons to make you ameniable to UK justice may well give Plod the authority to feel you collar, whip you inside, special Court and dealt with before the day is done. During this process certain checks will be made on your background and again the UK Licence come to light and some awkward questions to answered if Irish Licence had been produced i.e. using a DL with intent to deceive/attempting to pervert the course of justice and moving from a summary offence into the big league of indictable offences.
As stated previously the Road Safety Act when given Royal Assent will close this gap for those relying on an Irish Licence and you will pay a fine there and then as a deposit pending Court.
Incidentally Northern Ireland drivers can be dealt with as UK driver. Even a disqaulification here is valid over there.
DVD
Paddy Maloney and his Chieftans for President.........
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 3rd December 15:27
It would seem you have dual nationality?
Ok so you are resident in UK and hence have to have a UK Licence which I presume that you can use in Eire as a visitor sama sama Irish resident visiting UK.
So on one of your trips to that fair Isle you go the relevant Office in Dublin to exchange your UK Licence for an Irish one. Cannot help you as to what the procedure is there or enquiry as to status of being a resident/ visitor/scam artist to avoid points that would be made. Nevertheless you get one. I doubt very much that it will be issued contain a UK address so presumeably where your born or there abouts.
Back across the pool to Uk and you get flashed. If your vehicle is on Irish plates and hence Irish address for Keeper then SCP will disengage at the start as they have no provision for proceeding against the driver as non UK.But possibility exists of putting the vehicle number on certain records available to Plod for future reference.
If the vehicle is on UK plate then obviously the paperwork would go the RK who would have to go through the rigmaroll of naming the driver which may or may not end there.
Faced with the other scenario of a pull by Plod for speeding then basically he cannot give a Fixed Penalty Ticket as the procedure at present needs a UK Licence for endorsement but could get you to Court on a Summons if one could be served in UK. Having been found Guilty at Court and points awarded then two things happen. The first is that a skeleton Driving record is created at DVLC with those points at which time it may well disclose the fact that you already hold a UK Licence and an enquiry farmed out as to why you are operating on two Licences. Nefarious reasons heading the list. The second is that legislation either exists (I believe this is the case) or shortly to come into force that the sins in an EEC Country are forwarded to the issuing authority of the Driving Licence. Presumably this is in preparation of harmonisation of Motoring offences through the EEC. But not having an address for service of summons to make you ameniable to UK justice may well give Plod the authority to feel you collar, whip you inside, special Court and dealt with before the day is done. During this process certain checks will be made on your background and again the UK Licence come to light and some awkward questions to answered if Irish Licence had been produced i.e. using a DL with intent to deceive/attempting to pervert the course of justice and moving from a summary offence into the big league of indictable offences.
As stated previously the Road Safety Act when given Royal Assent will close this gap for those relying on an Irish Licence and you will pay a fine there and then as a deposit pending Court.
Incidentally Northern Ireland drivers can be dealt with as UK driver. Even a disqaulification here is valid over there.
DVD
Paddy Maloney and his Chieftans for President.........
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 3rd December 15:27
DVD,
Thank you as always for the comprehensive response and detail.
Having read through it carefully - the bottom line is basically they'll get you one way or another - which is pretty much what I thought to begin with.
If there was a way of 'legitimately' avoiding points by simply using a system like this, then the population of Ireland would probably increase 10-fold! Plus - word would have spread like wild-fire around the UK-based Irish communities that this was possible.
I should stress that I was asking from a curiosity point of view, and not of that of any ulterior motive. I've got 0 points - never had any and don't intend on ever getting any.
Sorry for the thread hi-jack.
Back on topic now.
Many thanks again,
K
Thank you as always for the comprehensive response and detail.
Having read through it carefully - the bottom line is basically they'll get you one way or another - which is pretty much what I thought to begin with.
If there was a way of 'legitimately' avoiding points by simply using a system like this, then the population of Ireland would probably increase 10-fold! Plus - word would have spread like wild-fire around the UK-based Irish communities that this was possible.
I should stress that I was asking from a curiosity point of view, and not of that of any ulterior motive. I've got 0 points - never had any and don't intend on ever getting any.
Sorry for the thread hi-jack.
Back on topic now.
Many thanks again,
K
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