Accidents and lane closures?!?!?!?!
Discussion
Can any of our tame/friendly BIB explain the thoroughly anal procedure that keeps motorways and roads blocked for hours after an accident has occurred?
I am referring to the "blockage" on the a40 at PWM with morning, yet again I queue from the m25 into London for absolutely no reason other that rubber neckers etc. When I eventually get to the spot all I find is a nice Beemer with all the tinsel and flashing lights and one lane inexplicably closed off. According to the radio the accident occurred at 5:30 this morning, so why in the Lords name is the lane still closed at 9am?
Why does it seem that other countries Police forces concentrate on clearing the road as quickly as possible to getting the traffic moving again, yet ours are happy to sit with blocked roads for days on end?
Very stressed and late for work again.
Richard
I am referring to the "blockage" on the a40 at PWM with morning, yet again I queue from the m25 into London for absolutely no reason other that rubber neckers etc. When I eventually get to the spot all I find is a nice Beemer with all the tinsel and flashing lights and one lane inexplicably closed off. According to the radio the accident occurred at 5:30 this morning, so why in the Lords name is the lane still closed at 9am?
Why does it seem that other countries Police forces concentrate on clearing the road as quickly as possible to getting the traffic moving again, yet ours are happy to sit with blocked roads for days on end?
Very stressed and late for work again.
Richard
It's because paperwork needs filling in - every tiny detail of the accident. Therefore every tiny detail of the accident needs to be researched, so they close the road for this.
The longer the road was closed, the more likely it was a fatal.
If it makes you feel better the M4 was backed up all the way to jc4 (where I now work, gave up commuting to jc2!!).
The longer the road was closed, the more likely it was a fatal.
If it makes you feel better the M4 was backed up all the way to jc4 (where I now work, gave up commuting to jc2!!).
You think you had it bad? Be thankful you didn't have to travel the M1 today.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4
Because depending on the seriousness of the accident it could mean there is techically the equivalent of a murder investigation (death by dangerous driving) so all evidence needs to be preserved and secured as well as a thourough investigation at the scene, Alot of information can be lost very quickly if the carrigway was reopened.
Also its for the safety of people at the scene, the closure could have been to protect the officers who were sweeping up the mess, recovery agents etc.
We try to open roads asap but sometimes the safety and investigation overides the need to open the carrigway asap.
Also its for the safety of people at the scene, the closure could have been to protect the officers who were sweeping up the mess, recovery agents etc.
We try to open roads asap but sometimes the safety and investigation overides the need to open the carrigway asap.
^Slider^ said:
Because depending on the seriousness of the accident it could mean there is techically the equivalent of a murder investigation (death by dangerous driving) so all evidence needs to be preserved and secured as well as a thourough investigation at the scene, Alot of information can be lost very quickly if the carrigway was reopened.
Also its for the safety of people at the scene, the closure could have been to protect the officers who were sweeping up the mess, recovery agents etc.
We try to open roads asap but sometimes the safety and investigation overides the need to open the carrigway asap.
Someone gave a similar response to Honest John in the Telegraph a while back and was left in no doubt just what he thought of that.
My related gripe is why, when a road is shut following an accident as happened here today, is no attempt made to signpost a diversion, forewarn of the road closure or indeed take any interest in the fate of those diverted?
dogwatch said:
Because depending on the seriousness of the accident it could mean there is techically the equivalent of a murder investigation (death by dangerous driving) so all evidence needs to be preserved and secured as well as a thourough investigation at the scene, Alot of information can be lost very quickly if the carrigway was reopened.
Also its for the safety of people at the scene, the closure could have been to protect the officers who were sweeping up the mess, recovery agents etc.
We try to open roads asap but sometimes the safety and investigation overides the need to open the carrigway asap.
Someone gave a similar response to Honest John in the Telegraph a while back and was left in no doubt just what he thought of that.
My related gripe is why, when a road is shut following an accident as happened here today, is no attempt made to signpost a diversion, forewarn of the road closure or indeed take any interest in the fate of those diverted?
Generally its highways that will arrange diversions and they are usually requested to sort that out, But Highways being council run take an age to get themselves sorted out and put in place.
I know its a common gripe with motorists but rules relating to motorwyas are different for police.
For example. If i attend a RTC on a normal slow road then generally i will ask highways to sort a diversion, untill they turn up resources permitting i will have set one up myself with a couple of other officers or PCSO's.
For motorways you have to be fast roads trained with motorway training. The only officers with that training are Traffic. With traffic numbers as they are its not possible to resource that and meet operational commitments throughout the police area unfortuneatly which is why its down to highways to get their arse into gear to get it sorted.
Hope that explains things a little.
Interesting--it seems 6 posters on this subject being public drivers, are concerned with the complete shutdown of the National road system at a moments notice ----- Without Alternative routes posted .
50,000-60,000 drivers left in limbo time and time again---without much thought from the EXPERTS who it seems at times--are more concerned with Closing m/ways and other roads, to declare a "Crime Scene" for 5-7 hours.
Total Gridlock in a 50 mile radius, more accidents caused by utter frustration ---WHO cares--
Seeing crashed Vehicles--Armco down-- and teams working is acceptable, but Many other Incidents are totally unacceptable.
My local area-- Busy B road , single car off road at bend--fatality of two people--Drugged to the eyeballs-declared CS--road closed 6 hrs-- no alternative routes.
Police claim DD may be considered, we all know how difficult this is to prove---Example, M1 closed 7 hours after lorry rear ends car with 2A-2C and pushes into another lorry--4 fatality,s--at a later date driver pleads for a WDCA--£200 fine -6 months ban.
So Question--Why do so many drivers think this is the Normal proceedure ???.Totally Unacceptable--BUT-we are Brits.
50,000-60,000 drivers left in limbo time and time again---without much thought from the EXPERTS who it seems at times--are more concerned with Closing m/ways and other roads, to declare a "Crime Scene" for 5-7 hours.
Total Gridlock in a 50 mile radius, more accidents caused by utter frustration ---WHO cares--
Seeing crashed Vehicles--Armco down-- and teams working is acceptable, but Many other Incidents are totally unacceptable.
My local area-- Busy B road , single car off road at bend--fatality of two people--Drugged to the eyeballs-declared CS--road closed 6 hrs-- no alternative routes.
Police claim DD may be considered, we all know how difficult this is to prove---Example, M1 closed 7 hours after lorry rear ends car with 2A-2C and pushes into another lorry--4 fatality,s--at a later date driver pleads for a WDCA--£200 fine -6 months ban.
So Question--Why do so many drivers think this is the Normal proceedure ???.Totally Unacceptable--BUT-we are Brits.
^Slider^ said:
Because depending on the seriousness of the accident it could mean there is techically the equivalent of a murder investigation (death by dangerous driving) so all evidence needs to be preserved and secured as well as a thourough investigation at the scene, Alot of information can be lost very quickly if the carrigway was reopened.
I appreciate this, but surely in this day and age, a shed load of hi res digital images from a set of referenced locations could be analysed later. Clean up and get the road open.
IMO the cost to industry and commerce of a motorway closure, way outweighs the fact that occasionally a dangerous driver will get off on lack of evidence, or the wrong person will lose thier NCB.
Having said that, I'd hate to be the next person hit by that driver who got off, and I'd hate to be the bloke who lost his NCB.... but I stand by it.
It goes a bit further than pictures of the scene for later vieweing. Stuff like ABD marks indicating first point of lockup. Skid lines which may not be visible unless at the right angle.
Also pictures wont put a scene into perspective.
Hires digi pics from referanced points are already taken, even the force helicopter is used to fly over and take arial pictures on the scene, its all about gathering maximun evidence.
Never a quick process i agree but there is nothing that can beat handgathering of evidence at the moment as far as im aware.
Also pictures wont put a scene into perspective.
Hires digi pics from referanced points are already taken, even the force helicopter is used to fly over and take arial pictures on the scene, its all about gathering maximun evidence.
Never a quick process i agree but there is nothing that can beat handgathering of evidence at the moment as far as im aware.
Everything has already been said about gathering evidence for a serious RTC, it takes around 4 - 5 hours. If not serious however, the cars are just dragged onto the hard shoulder and lanes opened as soon as possible.
If the m/way is blocked, usually the motorway is closed at the junction before it and traffic diverted off there,but that takes at least another patrol car. OK, it's find your own way normally, but there's often an A road close by. The NTCC (National Traffic control Centre) will know about it if a lane or more is to be closed for more than 15 mins, they then contact local radio, put the message signs saying such as "M6 closed at jnt 7, use M6 toll" or whatever is required.
The biggest problem is the traffic that's stuck between the last off slip and the accident, to turn them round and escort them wrong direction back up to the last junction is a major task, as it can only be done 10 vehicles at a time, with a Police Patrol car leading, now how many vehicles are stuck?????
The alternative is to close the opposite carriageway, cut a gap through the central reservation barrier, and allow the traffic to go through onto the other carriageway. rather drastic! so will only be done if the road is going to be closed for some considerable time.
The other thing is, the local authorities DON'T WANT you to come off the m/way and clog all their local roads up!
The biggest cause of accidents on the motorway is vehicles travelling too close to the one in front, you then finish up with multiple RTC's so leave more room guys!
If the m/way is blocked, usually the motorway is closed at the junction before it and traffic diverted off there,but that takes at least another patrol car. OK, it's find your own way normally, but there's often an A road close by. The NTCC (National Traffic control Centre) will know about it if a lane or more is to be closed for more than 15 mins, they then contact local radio, put the message signs saying such as "M6 closed at jnt 7, use M6 toll" or whatever is required.
The biggest problem is the traffic that's stuck between the last off slip and the accident, to turn them round and escort them wrong direction back up to the last junction is a major task, as it can only be done 10 vehicles at a time, with a Police Patrol car leading, now how many vehicles are stuck?????
The alternative is to close the opposite carriageway, cut a gap through the central reservation barrier, and allow the traffic to go through onto the other carriageway. rather drastic! so will only be done if the road is going to be closed for some considerable time.
The other thing is, the local authorities DON'T WANT you to come off the m/way and clog all their local roads up!
The biggest cause of accidents on the motorway is vehicles travelling too close to the one in front, you then finish up with multiple RTC's so leave more room guys!
gafferjim said:
The other thing is, the local authorities DON'T WANT you to come off the m/way and clog all their local roads up!
I think this actually is one of the biggest factors, cars stacked on a motorway are preferable to entire areas being gridlocked for a local authority.
I don't buy that mainly motorways are closed one junction ahead - it seems to me that often traffic is allowed to join a queue on the motorway as it avoids causing more chaos to the surrounding area. I got stuck on the M4 once a few years ago at Swindon - at 10am I joined the back of the queue of a fatal accident that had happened at 6am that morning. The only matrix sign was a 50 sign that was after the last junction at which I could have left the motorway. I didn't get off that stretch of motorway until after 2pm that afternoon. I appreciate entirely that it was a fatal accident and that it required investigation I still don't understand why traffic was allowed to join a queue four hours after the road had been closed.
Piglet said:
The other thing is, the local authorities DON'T WANT you to come off the m/way and clog all their local roads up!
I think this actually is one of the biggest factors, cars stacked on a motorway are preferable to entire areas being gridlocked for a local authority.
I don't buy that mainly motorways are closed one junction ahead - it seems to me that often traffic is allowed to join a queue on the motorway as it avoids causing more chaos to the surrounding area. I got stuck on the M4 once a few years ago at Swindon - at 10am I joined the back of the queue of a fatal accident that had happened at 6am that morning. The only matrix sign was a 50 sign that was after the last junction at which I could have left the motorway. I didn't get off that stretch of motorway until after 2pm that afternoon. I appreciate entirely that it was a fatal accident and that it required investigation I still don't understand why traffic was allowed to join a queue four hours after the road had been closed.
This is the problem with so many different Police forces controlling their own little patch of motorway as well, some do things different to others, some do it well, some do it badly!
Again, depending on the local area, some local authorities would sooner you que on the motorway for hours, rather than clog up their towns & Villages.
Make sure that you have the radio set for traffic breakthroughs
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff