Advice needed - Bus lane NIP/fine notification
Discussion
Ok, now this isnt for me but a friend I work with.
He's received a NIP from a council regarding illegal use of a bus lane but there are issues in the details.
Firstly the NIP arrived on Monday this week (maybe Friday last he cant remember exactly?) yet the "alleged" offence of using the bus lane happened on Janurary 14th (30days? or is the 14 day thing only working days?).
The NIP does have his number plate on it but the car make is listed as "UNKNOWN" and their are no car details given. Below this is a section that says "see photo evidence of offence below". Below this comment is a white box for the photo but none has been provided.
The offence was apparently commited at 1.30pm on a day he is positive he was home and cant remember being in the area on that day at all. The bus lane is also located on the opposite side of the road to the direction he would be travelling on that particular peice of road at that time. He can use said road to visit his girlfriend, but she was in New York on the date of the offence, hence his assurdness of not being there(He can also use the road to access his local cinema but seeing as his girlfriend was in New York and the earlist film doesnt start until 2-2.30pm hes also discounted this).
Now in somewhat unsurprising fashion the letter has very detailed instructions on how to pay, yet absolutely no details on how to contest. My mate is originally from Russia and hence although he does follow the rules of the road well (another reason he's surprised to the NIP), hes not up on the whats and howfors of the british legal system on things like this.
Help/advice of what he does next would be greatly received
ps. say again, NIP/fine notification is from a council not the police
pps. My first post in SPATL so be gentle
>> Edited by s2gonzo on Wednesday 15th February 12:07
He's received a NIP from a council regarding illegal use of a bus lane but there are issues in the details.
Firstly the NIP arrived on Monday this week (maybe Friday last he cant remember exactly?) yet the "alleged" offence of using the bus lane happened on Janurary 14th (30days? or is the 14 day thing only working days?).
The NIP does have his number plate on it but the car make is listed as "UNKNOWN" and their are no car details given. Below this is a section that says "see photo evidence of offence below". Below this comment is a white box for the photo but none has been provided.
The offence was apparently commited at 1.30pm on a day he is positive he was home and cant remember being in the area on that day at all. The bus lane is also located on the opposite side of the road to the direction he would be travelling on that particular peice of road at that time. He can use said road to visit his girlfriend, but she was in New York on the date of the offence, hence his assurdness of not being there(He can also use the road to access his local cinema but seeing as his girlfriend was in New York and the earlist film doesnt start until 2-2.30pm hes also discounted this).
Now in somewhat unsurprising fashion the letter has very detailed instructions on how to pay, yet absolutely no details on how to contest. My mate is originally from Russia and hence although he does follow the rules of the road well (another reason he's surprised to the NIP), hes not up on the whats and howfors of the british legal system on things like this.
Help/advice of what he does next would be greatly received
ps. say again, NIP/fine notification is from a council not the police
pps. My first post in SPATL so be gentle
>> Edited by s2gonzo on Wednesday 15th February 12:07
Regarding the 14-day rule, it has to be sent by the 14th day after the alleged offence and as long as its been posted 1st class, it can take as long as it likes to arrive (or not!). Check the postmark and the letter itself for a "date of issue" or similar. Not sure if this applies to non-police letters though.
Also, as the rest of the details are so sketchy, maybe your mate's a potential 'plate-cloning victim? Demand to see the photo evidence before stumping up any cash; as its a council-operated scam, er I mean 'scheme', they'll surely need to have evidence before they could attempt to prosecute.
>> Edited by pdV6 on Wednesday 15th February 12:44
Also, as the rest of the details are so sketchy, maybe your mate's a potential 'plate-cloning victim? Demand to see the photo evidence before stumping up any cash; as its a council-operated scam, er I mean 'scheme', they'll surely need to have evidence before they could attempt to prosecute.
>> Edited by pdV6 on Wednesday 15th February 12:44
pdV6 said:
Demand to see the photo evidence before stumping up any cash
Agreed! If your mate really is adament he was nowhere in the vacinity at the time, then let's see the council's proof.
However, this actually backfired on an obnoxious housemate of mine a couple of years ago. Can't remember his exact explanation, but he was insistent that he was nowhere near the bus lane at the time, heavy traffic, lots of busses, etc... Photo evidence arrives from the council and there he was, clear as day, driving his car in the bus lane on a deserted road. He was speechless for the first time ever!
The moral of the story is.....is your friend really sure he wasn't there at the time?
>> Edited by T5-R on Wednesday 15th February 13:43
My mate is pretty sure he wasnt there but says quite matter a factly that if the photo shows he is then £50 will be in the post. It doesnt really fase him.
But he really cant remember being there and the fact that apart from his numberplate no other car details are given apart from make as UNKNOWN. Which is kinda strange if ou ask me (he doesnt drive a really un-usual car, run of the mill 5 door hatch?). He is also a london dweller and knows full well the amount of camera's around so is not the sort to cruise down (or even stray into) a bus lane.
So he's currently a bit stumped. But appreiciate the advise guys, kinda matches what I have told him already "tell them nicely that you want to see the proof".
Firstly to understand the predicament of your friend the local London Authority of where the offence was commited will have made a Traffic Regulation Order bringing in the Bus Lane. You can check and confirm with them that such an Order exists? If not your friend is in the clear....
Within the Traffic Order will be a requirement that it has to be signed as such.
Diagram 953 Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 stipulates this sign - blue roundel with white bus with pedal cycle above (if p/c's allowed). Onus on LA where a prohibition is concerned it has to be signed. Absence of signs makes Order uneforceable, your friend in the clear.
Sign 953 under TSGD2002 is a sign which contravention is an offence of failing to conform to a traffic sign under S 36 Road Traffic Axt 1988 and as such requires a Notice of Intended Prosecution to be served either on the Reg Keeper of the vehicle or the driver and sent out so that it is received under the normal course of the post in 15 days from the offence (14 days plus day of offence) Outside this time it can be raised that the NOIP is illegal and proceedings barred. Was he the owner of the vehicle if so then late service gives him an appeal as it is unlawful. But and it is a big BUT because as yet I cannot resolve,there would appear some indication that LA's get away with not serving a Notice of Intended prosecution under RTA 88 as the offence is outlined under the Bus Lanes Contravention (Penalty charges......) etc shown below which makes no mention of Notice being served in 14 days. It is mention in the post NIP received. Confirm that this in fact is not the Penalty Charge Notice a totally different form.
Now it is stated that London is involved - detection of these type of offences by cameras is permitted under Road Traffic Offenders (Additional Offences and Prescribed Devices) Order 1997 by cameras approved under The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices)(England) Order 2005.
Under The Bus Lane Contraventions (Approved Local Authorities)(England} Order 2005 Councils should be listed as authorised to decriminalise this type offence and instead of Police involved enforce themselves. Looks as if they are so authorised by sending out a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) which if not paid instead of going to a Mags Court a Debt order made at County Court and Baliffis called in.
Have a look also at:
www.tinyurl.com/8a95b
The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement)(England) Regs 2005 which outlines amongst other information that may be of interest the avenue of appeals. Bear in mind that the LA are not really interested as they want the cash and fob off first attempts. Obviously from what I have said and below it may well pay to go the whole hog to the Adjudicator, an independent person.
Now London, the city of cloned motor vehicles, from what is stated friend has no recollection of being in area involved in offence, LA have not sent photo which must be grounds for suspecting that a cloned vehicle could be involved. It may be considered putting this to the LA and asking for evidence of photo or other as to exactly what the vehicle involved is. If they send a photo which ID friends vehicle beyond doubt be preparared to hold hands up and disengage. If you write back in time fine will be put on hold until matter sorted one way or the other.
If you type in the various Acts/Orders as Keywords you should be able to bring up and read in depth.
Hope this helps.
Not an expert just an old
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 15th February 16:45
Within the Traffic Order will be a requirement that it has to be signed as such.
Diagram 953 Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 stipulates this sign - blue roundel with white bus with pedal cycle above (if p/c's allowed). Onus on LA where a prohibition is concerned it has to be signed. Absence of signs makes Order uneforceable, your friend in the clear.
Sign 953 under TSGD2002 is a sign which contravention is an offence of failing to conform to a traffic sign under S 36 Road Traffic Axt 1988 and as such requires a Notice of Intended Prosecution to be served either on the Reg Keeper of the vehicle or the driver and sent out so that it is received under the normal course of the post in 15 days from the offence (14 days plus day of offence) Outside this time it can be raised that the NOIP is illegal and proceedings barred. Was he the owner of the vehicle if so then late service gives him an appeal as it is unlawful. But and it is a big BUT because as yet I cannot resolve,there would appear some indication that LA's get away with not serving a Notice of Intended prosecution under RTA 88 as the offence is outlined under the Bus Lanes Contravention (Penalty charges......) etc shown below which makes no mention of Notice being served in 14 days. It is mention in the post NIP received. Confirm that this in fact is not the Penalty Charge Notice a totally different form.
Now it is stated that London is involved - detection of these type of offences by cameras is permitted under Road Traffic Offenders (Additional Offences and Prescribed Devices) Order 1997 by cameras approved under The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices)(England) Order 2005.
Under The Bus Lane Contraventions (Approved Local Authorities)(England} Order 2005 Councils should be listed as authorised to decriminalise this type offence and instead of Police involved enforce themselves. Looks as if they are so authorised by sending out a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) which if not paid instead of going to a Mags Court a Debt order made at County Court and Baliffis called in.
Have a look also at:
www.tinyurl.com/8a95b
The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement)(England) Regs 2005 which outlines amongst other information that may be of interest the avenue of appeals. Bear in mind that the LA are not really interested as they want the cash and fob off first attempts. Obviously from what I have said and below it may well pay to go the whole hog to the Adjudicator, an independent person.
Now London, the city of cloned motor vehicles, from what is stated friend has no recollection of being in area involved in offence, LA have not sent photo which must be grounds for suspecting that a cloned vehicle could be involved. It may be considered putting this to the LA and asking for evidence of photo or other as to exactly what the vehicle involved is. If they send a photo which ID friends vehicle beyond doubt be preparared to hold hands up and disengage. If you write back in time fine will be put on hold until matter sorted one way or the other.
If you type in the various Acts/Orders as Keywords you should be able to bring up and read in depth.
Hope this helps.
Not an expert just an old
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 15th February 16:45
I'm surprised a photo was not attached. Perhaps they are trying to save money 
I got caught in a bus lane, 2 days running at the same spot! My own fault entirely. I was turning left at the next roundabout and sneaked over before I should have.
The photo showed me as clear as day. This was a year or two ago, so they have obviously changed their policy since.
I got caught in a bus lane, 2 days running at the same spot! My own fault entirely. I was turning left at the next roundabout and sneaked over before I should have.
The photo showed me as clear as day. This was a year or two ago, so they have obviously changed their policy since.
DVD,
Thank you, when I've figured out what you said I will pass the post on
but seriously, cheers for the feedback guys. It seems the advice I already gave (about getting proof) does seem the absolute way to go so will pass it on to him and give him any assistance he needs. He's Russian, VERY clever, but english is not his first language, so not sure of his letter writing ability.
He's quite prepared to pay should the proof come through and be indesputable, at least if thats the case he will have already cost them money to send the photo
Thank you, when I've figured out what you said I will pass the post on
but seriously, cheers for the feedback guys. It seems the advice I already gave (about getting proof) does seem the absolute way to go so will pass it on to him and give him any assistance he needs. He's Russian, VERY clever, but english is not his first language, so not sure of his letter writing ability.
He's quite prepared to pay should the proof come through and be indesputable, at least if thats the case he will have already cost them money to send the photo
Ok, got some more detail on this that (I think) add's more fuel to his fire.
The date of offence is shown as 14/01/2006
The date of the notice is shown as 24/01/2006
He received this notice on 10/02/2006 (Friday of last week)
The notice itself states that if you respond within 14days of the date of notice the reduced fine of £50 is applicable, after 14 days it becomes £100. But he didnt even receive the notice until 17 days after the notice deadline (27 after the offence).
Now there is a very valid reason for the postal delay. He moved house around the time of the offence. He did notify the DVLA of the address change but obviously somebody didnt update his records very quickly. The notice was sent to his old flat and not his current registered address. Has did set up Royal Mail post redirection on his old address when he moved but this just means that any post for him sent there tends to sit around at the sorting office (for sometimes up to 3 weeks) before he gets it.
So the only info on the Notice that relates to him is his name and number plate (ok, and his old address, but he moved around the 14/01 and currently cant remember what the date was, I said he was very clever, I didnt say anything about memory). He is still sure he wasnt in the area tho'.
Now my new question is:-
What does he do now. He's outside of the £50 window if taken to the letter (I'm sure the council will try and squirm out of any responsibility of using the wrong address) but the notice only has 2 bits of info that actually relate to him (Name and index plate).
Does he be naughty ignore it and claim he never received the notice if they come back to him?
Does he phone them, say sorry and agree to pay £50 if they send him the proof?
Does he ask for proof and just pay the £100?
Does he act on the super advice that someone is sure to give below this post shortly?
None of the above?
App. the assistance.
The date of offence is shown as 14/01/2006
The date of the notice is shown as 24/01/2006
He received this notice on 10/02/2006 (Friday of last week)
The notice itself states that if you respond within 14days of the date of notice the reduced fine of £50 is applicable, after 14 days it becomes £100. But he didnt even receive the notice until 17 days after the notice deadline (27 after the offence).
Now there is a very valid reason for the postal delay. He moved house around the time of the offence. He did notify the DVLA of the address change but obviously somebody didnt update his records very quickly. The notice was sent to his old flat and not his current registered address. Has did set up Royal Mail post redirection on his old address when he moved but this just means that any post for him sent there tends to sit around at the sorting office (for sometimes up to 3 weeks) before he gets it.
So the only info on the Notice that relates to him is his name and number plate (ok, and his old address, but he moved around the 14/01 and currently cant remember what the date was, I said he was very clever, I didnt say anything about memory). He is still sure he wasnt in the area tho'.
Now my new question is:-
What does he do now. He's outside of the £50 window if taken to the letter (I'm sure the council will try and squirm out of any responsibility of using the wrong address) but the notice only has 2 bits of info that actually relate to him (Name and index plate).
Does he be naughty ignore it and claim he never received the notice if they come back to him?
Does he phone them, say sorry and agree to pay £50 if they send him the proof?
Does he ask for proof and just pay the £100?
Does he act on the super advice that someone is sure to give below this post shortly?
None of the above?
App. the assistance.
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