Legality of Speed Limit Signs

[grahamdance]

I dropped a friend off at Pembroke Dock this afternoon, and noticed a shortish (0.5 mile) stretch of dual carriageway with a posted 50mph limit.

Rather than showing black writing with a red circle, both the writing and circle were black. Is this an enforcable limit?

There were no cameras there, nor police cars, I'm not trying to get out of a speeding fine, I'm just curious ... I think about these things!

[oldie]

Have a look at this - www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#limits

[7db]

That sounds like it is not only not an enforceable sign, but a sign which is confusingly similar to a proper sign, and therefore removable by the LA / HA.

Have you reported it?

[grahamdance]

7db said:

Have you reported it?

No - I was just curious about its legality.

Its on this piece of dual carriageway for anyone who is local. Its a NSL on the single carriageway either side, the extra lanes in the 50 limit are really crawler lanes (as the road goes down then up a hill) - but its signed as a dual carriageway.

[Dwight VanDriver]

D of Transport Booklet advises that a white roundel with a black outer border is one which gives an Order.

The speed limit mentioned would need to have been brought into being by a Traffic Regulation Order.

TSGD 2002 states that a prohibition/restriction/Order has to be marked by signs approved and to the design shown within the Regs. That for marking the start of a max speed limit is the roundel with the red outer border.

If not then the limit can argueable said to be unenforceable.

But a sign that does not conform to TSGD can be an authorsied sign on the direction of the authorisation of Sec of State. Because of the likely confusion
as outlined in the post above this I doubt he will have done so. Had he done so it would have been with a blaze of publicity which is missing.

Sign therefore IMHO in illegal.

Would be interested to hear whether the LA made a TRO and have sub-contracted the signing and have been let down, or if No Order in place have erected the signs
in an advisory capacity hoping to achieve a reduction without the bother of going into the Order making process.

Again as stated above wants reporting...

dvd





>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 18th March 16:46

[xiphias]

There's one of these on the A61 north of matlock (ish). Except it's a white circle, black border with 35 written in it! I suspect it can't be legal...

[D Stanley]

If the sign has a black ring it is giving an instruction.

This must be a minimum speed sign.

In other words you must do 50 or above up to the NSL!

[g_attrill]

Here's one in Portsmouth, it's on the A3 Mile End Road, just before the M275. It appears to be counting down to an INCREASE in the speed limit, using motorway countdown markers
Interestingly it is in the vicinity of a Truvelo, now they wouldn't be trying to confuse people would they?



You can check whether a sign has been authorised using the FoI list here:

www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_foi/documents/divisionhomepage/611248.hcsp

Gareth

[Dwight VanDriver]

Taken in isolation then yes confusing?

Repeater sign?
50 limit ahead at 2 clicks?

Note from that useful reference on special authorisation that there is a speed roundel non standard but authorised sign in Essex ? Pity they do not show a design. Experimenting?

dvd

[wanty1974]

There are countless sites across South Wales with these black circle limit signs. Most are warnings for an impending change in limit, accompanied like the above with a 321 countdown marker, but the actual limit change is marked with the proper red circle on both sides of the carriageway. I've been lead to believe by Gwent plod that these black circle ones are purely advisory for impending limit changes and cannot be used as repeaters or enforcers...

[ashes]

How legal are the 'correct' signs (red border, black lettering) when on a yellow background? Lots of them around A616 on the way to Manchester

[wanty1974]

ashes said:

How legal are the 'correct' signs (red border, black lettering) when on a yellow background? Lots of them around A616 on the way to Manchester

If it's a white sign with red border and black lettering, they are legal on a yellow background as long as they do not have a further border around them - some signs in South Wales have a roundel inside a 321 countdown rectangle. This is not legal. The yellow background is increasingly in use, makes the sign more visable.

If you mean signs with a yellow background instead of the white (inside the red circle) then that's a different kettle of fish; never seen signs like them and doubt they're legal 'enforcers'.

[ashes]

Cheers

[Observer2]

A couple of times in the last few days I've noticed that the red border on some of the VSL gantry signs on the M25 (around J14-16) were unlit (say for 2 lanes out of the 4). I guess that makes the speed limit unenforceable for that section - although could be hard to prove it.

[Dwight VanDriver]

Speed limit sign on a a yellow background then plate has to be rectangular except where used in conjunction with a Township sign/plate. (TSGD 2004)

dvd

[J500ANT]

I think I saw the signs the original poster was talking about, on my way to Pembroke Dock today. They are on a yellow board with Max Speed written underneath. (From memory - couldnt stop and take a pic) so maybe they are just an advisory? Ive seen similar in Lincolnshire IIRC.