Discussion
OK guys and gals, soapbox time, just something I have to get off my chest (apart from the wife's bra, its killing me!!)
Jeremy Clarkson et al keep banging on about our car hating Government, how dare they, with fuel tax frozen and zero car tax bands and lets not forget zero tax on historic vehicles doesn't this clearly indicate how BBP (Blair,Brown,Prescott) actually love us. I'd even go so far as say that I'm prepared to ignore the Cash for Peerage row to suggest that Blair is knighted for his contribution to our great country (after he is tried for war crimes naturally).
Now lets cut to the chase, the Government positively does NOT hate cars, they love them on an unequivocal scale, their whole economy is based upon how much they can extort out of the beleagured motorist, they merely perpetrate the myth that they hate cars to justify ever more devious and corrupt methods of parting us with our hard earned.
Case in point, they are relaxing the penalties associated with speeding offences, how magnanamous of them surely evidence that they are looking after the motorist. That is until you examine the underlying reasons, there are now so many motorists on 9 points that one more misdemeanour will bring about an automatic ban, good you may say, anyone who reaches 12 points is clearly a danger to society and should be hung drawn and quartered, apart from the vicar recently banned for breaking the speed limit on multiple occasions during the period of one week, a camera had been erected on a stretch of road which was badly signposted, he believed the limit to be 40 when it was actually 30 and he couldn't understand why he kept getting his photo taken!!! And he is not the only one. Now consider this, a huge number of motorists facing a ban, whats going to happen, 1) for a period of say 3-6 months they will no longer be filling up at the pumps and giving an extortionate level of tax to the Chancellor in the process, 2) they will take their car off the road declare SORN, surrender their tax disc and save possibly £90 in the process, the Chancellor is £90 out of pocket, 3) they will suspend or cancel their insurance saving a substantial amount of money on insurance premiums and preventing the Chancellor for collecting IPT (insurance premium tax), 4) they will no longer be using their cars thereby removing any risk of collecting parking tickets and speeding tickets, result less revenue for the good old Chancellor. The Government are not slow to realise when they are cutting off their nose to spite their face, therefore only the balatantly irresponsible or stupid motorist will be hit with a ban, now this is something I wholeheartedly agree with but it does not excuse the corrupt nature of the Government's thought process.
Lets move on to our friendly plod, those brave dedicated individuals who take their lives in their hands on an everyday basis so that we all may sleep soundly in our beds, well do you sleep soundly in your bed? Thought not!!! There was a time when I had real respect for PC Plod, particularly after I was stopped for speeding 23 years ago in my Lotus Esprit S2, having started to say "do you realise what speed I had to go to to catch up with you", he and his woman PC partner spent the next 10 minutes asking me about the car, where is the engine, whats the top speed, how does it handle, rather than a ticket or even a slap on the wrist I was left with the comment "keep an eye out for flashing blue lights in future" and a friendly handshake. Even then for every good cop there was a bad un, whilst diving my 1968 Elan +2 in a line of traffic I noticed a policewoman leap out into the road with her hand held high Hitler style, I thought it very amusing but assumed she was signalling to someone on the opposite side of the road, half a mile further on 4 police cars, blues and twos, screached to a halt in front of my car Sweeney style, I was virtually dragged out of my car and told to wait while they picked up the policewoman further back the road that had apparantly tried to stop me. When she arrived she virtually had steam coming out of her little piggy ears and I'm sure she was frothing from her moustached mouth. First of all she accused me of failing to stop for a pig, sorry police officer, I explained that by the time I had noticed her with her hand held out I was level with her, I had committed no offense and therefore assumed that she was signalling to someone else, she grudgingly accepted that but then accused me of speeding, I said that I was travelling in a long line of cars and not overtaking, as i was doing the same speed as everyone else I could not have been speeding, using all of her 2 brain cells she processed the information and again had to concede. Then she played her trump card, with her smug little face she told me that the reason she wanted to stop me was that I had committed an offence by not having a front number plate, equally smug I led her to the front of the Elan +2 to point out the numbers attached to the grill as it had came out of the factory many years previously. Having scooped her jaw off the ground and realising the only way she was going to get me was by planting cannibis in my car she reluctantly told me to be on my way, no apologies they zoomed off in their pigmobiles to harrass some other innocent tax payer.
That incident probably signalled the decline of my respect for the police, today I consider them little more than glorified tax collectors for the Government, if you are a mugger, burglar, drug dealer, illegal immigrant, rapist or murderer the only chance of being caught is if you are stupid enough to drive an untaxed vehicle, yes its official the most heinous crime you can commit in todays society is to drive an untaxed vehicle and deprive the Chancellor of his wedge. Where I live I see police traps with ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras virtually on a daily basis, and yes it may not surprise you to know that I have fallen foul of them recently. The camera checks your number plate with the Police and DVLA database, so you will be pulled if you haven't got an up to date tax disc or if your vehicle has previously been recorded as being used for the purposes of a crime. So the little old granny that unwittingly purchased her Nissan Micra from Mr Big the local drug dealer can look forward to many happy hours being spread eagled on the bonnet of her car with PC Pervert's gloved hand imbedded in her anus. I can see the long line of grannies itching to buy such a car. Now my vehicle had been declared SORN and I decided to start using it again so I insured the car and on receipt of the cover note I taxed the vehicle, took it off my driveway and was enjoying the experience after a few months lay off, drive though the police road block and waited for the inevitable pull, at least I expected it, now these road blocks are regularly manned by 20-30 police officers and DVLA officials, 4 plod leapt into my path and gesticulated for me to pull over, before I could say good morning I was being read the riot act by plod and a DVLA official advising me that I had contravined the road traffic act or whatever and that I faced prosecution for using a vehicle whilst delaring SORN, having no tax disc and no valid insurance, I immediately retorted "oh you mean the tax disc that I just purchased from the Post Office an hour previously and the insrance cover I had arranged confirmed by the cover note I had in the car." The DVLA moron went away with his tail between his legs and the copper admitted that errors do occur when their database does not update immediately, no apologies though just told to be on my way. The copper tried to justify their tactics by saying that so many people get away without buying a tax disc that they have to do something about it, but said that those that didn't tax their cars were usually involved in other crimes. So the muggers will be caught if they have stolen phones on them, burglars will be caught if they have got TVs DVD players and jewellry, drug dealers with their little packets of cocain and wad of cash, illegal immigrants without a passport and "I'm an Alien" tattood on their forehead, rapists with "I'm a rapist" tattood on their forehead and murderers with a corpse propped up in the passenger seat, will all be stopped and charged with their crimes, well at least they will be done for failing to display a tax disc as they would have to be imbeciles to drive through a police road block with anything other than a legal car and evidence of a crime on their person.
Now the main point of this particular beef, whilst 4 police vans, 5 police cars and about 30 plod were pulling hardened criminals that rip off the Government I found out a couple of days later that the same day as I was pulled over my friends house was burgled only about 1/2 mile from the road block, his neighbour had noticed someone strange loitering in the area and phoned the police, she was told that there were no officers available to attend and they would send a patrol car as soon as possible, no car turned up and the police only attended the following day to take fingerprints. The burglar probably drove past the road block smug at the knowledge he was fireproof with a legal car, makes you sick doesn't it. Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists and murderers are undoubtedly laughing themselves silly at the lack of police attention whilst if you are a motorist you can expect surveylance helicopters taking pictures of you eating a banana whilst driving.
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society, a force that was once revered is now treated with suspicion and downright distaste by the public and especially the motorist, if you are a law abiding citizen there are two groups you have to be wary off wanting to rip you off the crooks and the glorified tax collectors, thet are both as bad as each other. Recruitment and retention of Officers is apparantly at an all time low, as is morale.
Going back to the car loving Government, I turn to the thorny subject of petrol prices, virtually the highest in the western world, why is this, well its all down to corruption. The Government pays lip service to the motorist who complains at the price of petrol by freezing fuel duty and threatening to make the oil companies pay higher corporation tax taking a slice of their obscene profit margins. Yet it is widely known that the billions in profit made by the oil companies does not originate from the manufacturing of petrol and diesel, their profit margins on that are negligible, the vast profit goes to the Treasury. Even if the Government carries out its threat to impose higher corporation tax it will only be a drop in the ocean to the oil companies, in fact they could make a loss on petrol and pay higher corporation tax and still make profits in the billions. The Government is in the pocket of oil companies and earns a very good living out of the association, this liaison is global make no mistake. Alternative fuels are not in the process of being developed, they have been developed and the oil campanies are making sure they keep them supressed maintaining our dependence on fossil fuels and their monopoly of the market, the Government and indeed all Governments throughout the world, are not only aware of this they actively encourage it and prosper into the bargain.
Just imagine what would happen to the global economy if you were told that you could run your car on a product that produces no emmissions, was very cheap and was a product you could make in your garden shed with simple equipment. If you run a diesel, such a fuel already exists, waste oil from restaurants can be distilled, actually that is too strong a word for it, strained through a seive and with the addition of a small amount of white spirit simply added to your tank and your diesel will run as happily as it would on premium city diesel, it still produces emmissions though and legally you would have to send the Chancellor the exact amount of fuel tax, but you would do that anyway, wouldn't everyone? Incidentally there are dedicated Chip Fat Police operating throughout the country, mainly in rural areas, if they like the smell of cod emanating from your exhaust you better have your tax receipts on you or you run the risk of having your vehicle confiscated. What was it I said about glorified tax collectors. The word is that black market fuel is rife, don't you think it strange that the fuel protesters of a few years ago have gone quiet despite extortionate fuel prices, the main protagonists were farmers and hauliers who just happen to be diesel users. The Government and Police are keeping it quiet so that more people don't cotton on to the black market, the same suppression of information as the amount of petrol stations being ripped off by motorists filling up and driving off, how many times has it been reported in the national or local press, yet every petrol station now won't let you put petrol in until their camera has checked out you number plate. Alternative fuel exists for the petrol user, an ordinary car with simple modifications will run on methane and the emissions are water vapour, don't expect a still to process cow shit in your local Halfords within the forseeable future, not unless it comes with a direct debit mandate to the Treasury relieving you of 30% of your monthly salary.
The Government want us to believe that using our cars is contributing to global warming and the destruction of the rain forests so it is our duty to pay as much for our motoring to prevent over use of our cars, yet the pollution from cars is negligible compared to industries and they are not prepared to hit them with an environmental tax as that would adversely affect production and economic growth. They conveniently ignore the data that suggests that CO2 emissions are actually supressing global warming by providing a blanket cutting out the suns rays, without it there is a distinct possibilty that global warming would be accelerated, they are not going to admit that as encouraging you to use your car would mean they cannot continue to penalise you for doing so.
Rant over, those of you still awake please feel free to add your opinion, love to know what others think. Now I must take my medication and matron says I have been a naughty boy and must put on the funny pyjamas that fasten behind my back, anyway I can look forward to having tea with the Aliens tomorrow, Tony Blair is one if you didn't know.
Jeremy Clarkson et al keep banging on about our car hating Government, how dare they, with fuel tax frozen and zero car tax bands and lets not forget zero tax on historic vehicles doesn't this clearly indicate how BBP (Blair,Brown,Prescott) actually love us. I'd even go so far as say that I'm prepared to ignore the Cash for Peerage row to suggest that Blair is knighted for his contribution to our great country (after he is tried for war crimes naturally).
Now lets cut to the chase, the Government positively does NOT hate cars, they love them on an unequivocal scale, their whole economy is based upon how much they can extort out of the beleagured motorist, they merely perpetrate the myth that they hate cars to justify ever more devious and corrupt methods of parting us with our hard earned.
Case in point, they are relaxing the penalties associated with speeding offences, how magnanamous of them surely evidence that they are looking after the motorist. That is until you examine the underlying reasons, there are now so many motorists on 9 points that one more misdemeanour will bring about an automatic ban, good you may say, anyone who reaches 12 points is clearly a danger to society and should be hung drawn and quartered, apart from the vicar recently banned for breaking the speed limit on multiple occasions during the period of one week, a camera had been erected on a stretch of road which was badly signposted, he believed the limit to be 40 when it was actually 30 and he couldn't understand why he kept getting his photo taken!!! And he is not the only one. Now consider this, a huge number of motorists facing a ban, whats going to happen, 1) for a period of say 3-6 months they will no longer be filling up at the pumps and giving an extortionate level of tax to the Chancellor in the process, 2) they will take their car off the road declare SORN, surrender their tax disc and save possibly £90 in the process, the Chancellor is £90 out of pocket, 3) they will suspend or cancel their insurance saving a substantial amount of money on insurance premiums and preventing the Chancellor for collecting IPT (insurance premium tax), 4) they will no longer be using their cars thereby removing any risk of collecting parking tickets and speeding tickets, result less revenue for the good old Chancellor. The Government are not slow to realise when they are cutting off their nose to spite their face, therefore only the balatantly irresponsible or stupid motorist will be hit with a ban, now this is something I wholeheartedly agree with but it does not excuse the corrupt nature of the Government's thought process.
Lets move on to our friendly plod, those brave dedicated individuals who take their lives in their hands on an everyday basis so that we all may sleep soundly in our beds, well do you sleep soundly in your bed? Thought not!!! There was a time when I had real respect for PC Plod, particularly after I was stopped for speeding 23 years ago in my Lotus Esprit S2, having started to say "do you realise what speed I had to go to to catch up with you", he and his woman PC partner spent the next 10 minutes asking me about the car, where is the engine, whats the top speed, how does it handle, rather than a ticket or even a slap on the wrist I was left with the comment "keep an eye out for flashing blue lights in future" and a friendly handshake. Even then for every good cop there was a bad un, whilst diving my 1968 Elan +2 in a line of traffic I noticed a policewoman leap out into the road with her hand held high Hitler style, I thought it very amusing but assumed she was signalling to someone on the opposite side of the road, half a mile further on 4 police cars, blues and twos, screached to a halt in front of my car Sweeney style, I was virtually dragged out of my car and told to wait while they picked up the policewoman further back the road that had apparantly tried to stop me. When she arrived she virtually had steam coming out of her little piggy ears and I'm sure she was frothing from her moustached mouth. First of all she accused me of failing to stop for a pig, sorry police officer, I explained that by the time I had noticed her with her hand held out I was level with her, I had committed no offense and therefore assumed that she was signalling to someone else, she grudgingly accepted that but then accused me of speeding, I said that I was travelling in a long line of cars and not overtaking, as i was doing the same speed as everyone else I could not have been speeding, using all of her 2 brain cells she processed the information and again had to concede. Then she played her trump card, with her smug little face she told me that the reason she wanted to stop me was that I had committed an offence by not having a front number plate, equally smug I led her to the front of the Elan +2 to point out the numbers attached to the grill as it had came out of the factory many years previously. Having scooped her jaw off the ground and realising the only way she was going to get me was by planting cannibis in my car she reluctantly told me to be on my way, no apologies they zoomed off in their pigmobiles to harrass some other innocent tax payer.
That incident probably signalled the decline of my respect for the police, today I consider them little more than glorified tax collectors for the Government, if you are a mugger, burglar, drug dealer, illegal immigrant, rapist or murderer the only chance of being caught is if you are stupid enough to drive an untaxed vehicle, yes its official the most heinous crime you can commit in todays society is to drive an untaxed vehicle and deprive the Chancellor of his wedge. Where I live I see police traps with ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras virtually on a daily basis, and yes it may not surprise you to know that I have fallen foul of them recently. The camera checks your number plate with the Police and DVLA database, so you will be pulled if you haven't got an up to date tax disc or if your vehicle has previously been recorded as being used for the purposes of a crime. So the little old granny that unwittingly purchased her Nissan Micra from Mr Big the local drug dealer can look forward to many happy hours being spread eagled on the bonnet of her car with PC Pervert's gloved hand imbedded in her anus. I can see the long line of grannies itching to buy such a car. Now my vehicle had been declared SORN and I decided to start using it again so I insured the car and on receipt of the cover note I taxed the vehicle, took it off my driveway and was enjoying the experience after a few months lay off, drive though the police road block and waited for the inevitable pull, at least I expected it, now these road blocks are regularly manned by 20-30 police officers and DVLA officials, 4 plod leapt into my path and gesticulated for me to pull over, before I could say good morning I was being read the riot act by plod and a DVLA official advising me that I had contravined the road traffic act or whatever and that I faced prosecution for using a vehicle whilst delaring SORN, having no tax disc and no valid insurance, I immediately retorted "oh you mean the tax disc that I just purchased from the Post Office an hour previously and the insrance cover I had arranged confirmed by the cover note I had in the car." The DVLA moron went away with his tail between his legs and the copper admitted that errors do occur when their database does not update immediately, no apologies though just told to be on my way. The copper tried to justify their tactics by saying that so many people get away without buying a tax disc that they have to do something about it, but said that those that didn't tax their cars were usually involved in other crimes. So the muggers will be caught if they have stolen phones on them, burglars will be caught if they have got TVs DVD players and jewellry, drug dealers with their little packets of cocain and wad of cash, illegal immigrants without a passport and "I'm an Alien" tattood on their forehead, rapists with "I'm a rapist" tattood on their forehead and murderers with a corpse propped up in the passenger seat, will all be stopped and charged with their crimes, well at least they will be done for failing to display a tax disc as they would have to be imbeciles to drive through a police road block with anything other than a legal car and evidence of a crime on their person.
Now the main point of this particular beef, whilst 4 police vans, 5 police cars and about 30 plod were pulling hardened criminals that rip off the Government I found out a couple of days later that the same day as I was pulled over my friends house was burgled only about 1/2 mile from the road block, his neighbour had noticed someone strange loitering in the area and phoned the police, she was told that there were no officers available to attend and they would send a patrol car as soon as possible, no car turned up and the police only attended the following day to take fingerprints. The burglar probably drove past the road block smug at the knowledge he was fireproof with a legal car, makes you sick doesn't it. Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists and murderers are undoubtedly laughing themselves silly at the lack of police attention whilst if you are a motorist you can expect surveylance helicopters taking pictures of you eating a banana whilst driving.
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society, a force that was once revered is now treated with suspicion and downright distaste by the public and especially the motorist, if you are a law abiding citizen there are two groups you have to be wary off wanting to rip you off the crooks and the glorified tax collectors, thet are both as bad as each other. Recruitment and retention of Officers is apparantly at an all time low, as is morale.
Going back to the car loving Government, I turn to the thorny subject of petrol prices, virtually the highest in the western world, why is this, well its all down to corruption. The Government pays lip service to the motorist who complains at the price of petrol by freezing fuel duty and threatening to make the oil companies pay higher corporation tax taking a slice of their obscene profit margins. Yet it is widely known that the billions in profit made by the oil companies does not originate from the manufacturing of petrol and diesel, their profit margins on that are negligible, the vast profit goes to the Treasury. Even if the Government carries out its threat to impose higher corporation tax it will only be a drop in the ocean to the oil companies, in fact they could make a loss on petrol and pay higher corporation tax and still make profits in the billions. The Government is in the pocket of oil companies and earns a very good living out of the association, this liaison is global make no mistake. Alternative fuels are not in the process of being developed, they have been developed and the oil campanies are making sure they keep them supressed maintaining our dependence on fossil fuels and their monopoly of the market, the Government and indeed all Governments throughout the world, are not only aware of this they actively encourage it and prosper into the bargain.
Just imagine what would happen to the global economy if you were told that you could run your car on a product that produces no emmissions, was very cheap and was a product you could make in your garden shed with simple equipment. If you run a diesel, such a fuel already exists, waste oil from restaurants can be distilled, actually that is too strong a word for it, strained through a seive and with the addition of a small amount of white spirit simply added to your tank and your diesel will run as happily as it would on premium city diesel, it still produces emmissions though and legally you would have to send the Chancellor the exact amount of fuel tax, but you would do that anyway, wouldn't everyone? Incidentally there are dedicated Chip Fat Police operating throughout the country, mainly in rural areas, if they like the smell of cod emanating from your exhaust you better have your tax receipts on you or you run the risk of having your vehicle confiscated. What was it I said about glorified tax collectors. The word is that black market fuel is rife, don't you think it strange that the fuel protesters of a few years ago have gone quiet despite extortionate fuel prices, the main protagonists were farmers and hauliers who just happen to be diesel users. The Government and Police are keeping it quiet so that more people don't cotton on to the black market, the same suppression of information as the amount of petrol stations being ripped off by motorists filling up and driving off, how many times has it been reported in the national or local press, yet every petrol station now won't let you put petrol in until their camera has checked out you number plate. Alternative fuel exists for the petrol user, an ordinary car with simple modifications will run on methane and the emissions are water vapour, don't expect a still to process cow shit in your local Halfords within the forseeable future, not unless it comes with a direct debit mandate to the Treasury relieving you of 30% of your monthly salary.
The Government want us to believe that using our cars is contributing to global warming and the destruction of the rain forests so it is our duty to pay as much for our motoring to prevent over use of our cars, yet the pollution from cars is negligible compared to industries and they are not prepared to hit them with an environmental tax as that would adversely affect production and economic growth. They conveniently ignore the data that suggests that CO2 emissions are actually supressing global warming by providing a blanket cutting out the suns rays, without it there is a distinct possibilty that global warming would be accelerated, they are not going to admit that as encouraging you to use your car would mean they cannot continue to penalise you for doing so.
Rant over, those of you still awake please feel free to add your opinion, love to know what others think. Now I must take my medication and matron says I have been a naughty boy and must put on the funny pyjamas that fasten behind my back, anyway I can look forward to having tea with the Aliens tomorrow, Tony Blair is one if you didn't know.
With the greatest of respect, I think most police here would be quite offended to be labelled 'tax collectors'. I would imagine a fair number of people driving around with no tax, also drive with no MOT or insurance - and fail to stop after an accident. They're also likely to be 'up to things', such as driving away with the contents of your mate's house. ANPR doesn't just stop people without tax, it also flags up cars owned by people who the police have an active interest in.
I agree with a few of your points though about tax and motives, I'm deeply cynical about government in general. I only wish more people were, perhaps then we'd get better representation.
>> Edited by Parrot of doom on Thursday 23 March 02:26
I agree with a few of your points though about tax and motives, I'm deeply cynical about government in general. I only wish more people were, perhaps then we'd get better representation.
>> Edited by Parrot of doom on Thursday 23 March 02:26
mungo said:
Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists and murderers are undoubtedly laughing themselves silly at the lack of police attention whilst if you are a motorist you can expect surveylance helicopters taking pictures of you eating a banana whilst driving.
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society, a force that was once revered is now treated with suspicion and downright distaste by the public
I have read this bit and you couldn't be further from the truth. I regularly deal with muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists - no murderers yet but I have had people attempt to murder me!
These people know how proactively me and my team are looking for them too and they fear us more than anything!
Thankyou for telling me that all my hard 12 hour days of putting my life on the line trying to keep people safe are causing damage to society - thats really nice to hear
Thanks for your opinion Mungo, if you are not harrasing motorists and taking your life in your hands by tackling real criminals then good on you and I for one am eternally grateful, the damage to society is caused by the public perception that motorists are an easy target when real criminals are far more difficult to catch.
If you are saying 30 coppers trying to catch untaxed vehicles is a good use of resources then frankly I don't accept you really believe that for one minute, wouldn't they have been better used on the beat or attending the reported suspicious person who was almost certainly the perpetrator of the burglary?
ANPR fair enough highlights more than just untaxed vehicles, but hang on a second, do you really think that criminals are so stupid as to use an illegal vehicle I think they might well have cottoned on by now.
And why does it take 30 coppers at one road block, surely 6 would be adequate?
Anyway the point I am trying to make is I have lost faith in the police as have many of my car loving associates, you only have to read the press on a daily basis to find many instances where the general public feel exactly the same.
Still I wouldn't expect you to actually agree with any of my ramblings its only my opinion but I believe free speech is still legal.
LotusElan17 said:
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society
This is too general.
There is as much criminal law enforcement going on on a daily basis as there is motoring enforcement. Unfortunately every time a group of police officers carry out a raid at 4am to arrest drug dealers, arms traffickers, pimps or kidnappers, it doesn't (a) get into the news (b) have an obvious visible impact on the law abiding general public.
There is variety in every occupation, and there are plenty of BiB not involved in motoring enforcement doing a very good and very dangerous job, with nobody ever knowing about it.
LE 17, great post.
I've only got one issue. I don't think the police generalisations run absolutly true throughout, as Mungo has said there are some very good officers at the core of the force who want to do nothing more than take the lowlife and dregs of society off the street (for the CPS and parole board to put them back on again). I too am infuriated when I read in the daily rags stories where people are told officers will no longer attend burgalries, shop lifting etc, But often this type of policy is not driven by the individual officers, but by the senior decision makers right upto the home secretary. I agree with all your other sentiments, ref corruption, tax collection, petrol costs etc. Iremember reading the story about the welsh village hit by the Inland revenue for using chip fat in place of diesel. Wouldn't it be nice if the Government put as much effort into reducing waste first rather than raising more tax to plug gaps that mysteriously appear than it does thinking up new ways to shaft the populace. I think Blair, Brown Prescott et all appear to be uder the illusion that they might be a dictatorship rather than a democraticly voted in party (apparently).
I've only got one issue. I don't think the police generalisations run absolutly true throughout, as Mungo has said there are some very good officers at the core of the force who want to do nothing more than take the lowlife and dregs of society off the street (for the CPS and parole board to put them back on again). I too am infuriated when I read in the daily rags stories where people are told officers will no longer attend burgalries, shop lifting etc, But often this type of policy is not driven by the individual officers, but by the senior decision makers right upto the home secretary. I agree with all your other sentiments, ref corruption, tax collection, petrol costs etc. Iremember reading the story about the welsh village hit by the Inland revenue for using chip fat in place of diesel. Wouldn't it be nice if the Government put as much effort into reducing waste first rather than raising more tax to plug gaps that mysteriously appear than it does thinking up new ways to shaft the populace. I think Blair, Brown Prescott et all appear to be uder the illusion that they might be a dictatorship rather than a democraticly voted in party (apparently).
totally agree with the gist of it. Easy for people to pick out bits and say that wrong, but why do it? In general it's spot on LotusElan17 said:
Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists and murderers are undoubtedly laughing themselves silly at the lack of police attention whilst if you are a motorist you can expect surveylance helicopters taking pictures of you eating a banana whilst driving.
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society, a force that was once revered is now treated with suspicion and downright distaste by the public
I have read this bit and you couldn't be further from the truth. I regularly deal with muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists - no murderers yet but I have had people attempt to murder me!
These people know how proactively me and my team are looking for them too and they fear us more than anything!
Thankyou for telling me that all my hard 12 hour days of putting my life on the line trying to keep people safe are causing damage to society - thats really nice to hear
ANPR fair enough highlights more than just untaxed vehicles, but hang on a second, do you really think that criminals are so stupid as to use an illegal vehicle I think they might well have cottoned on by now.
Do you really think criminals don't use illegal, untaxed and uninsured vehicles ? Well, actually they do - rather alot .........
mungo said:
Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists and murderers are undoubtedly laughing themselves silly at the lack of police attention whilst if you are a motorist you can expect surveylance helicopters taking pictures of you eating a banana whilst driving.
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society, a force that was once revered is now treated with suspicion and downright distaste by the public
I have read this bit and you couldn't be further from the truth. I regularly deal with muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists - no murderers yet but I have had people attempt to murder me!
These people know how proactively me and my team are looking for them too and they fear us more than anything!
Thankyou for telling me that all my hard 12 hour days of putting my life on the line trying to keep people safe are causing damage to society - thats really nice to hear
He may have a point in a very small way;but it is not the fault of "coppers reading this post", more the fault of ACPO, the Government, those who set the Policies.
I think the failings of the Police is not the hard end crime you deal with, and not the soft end either.
It's the bit in the middle, which the public comes into contact with on a fairly regular basis which is more or less endemic in the country.
The objection is, I *think*, not the way they deal with the serious crime, but the focus on soft crime like nondiscretionary speeding rather than the crime that the public is actually bothered about, which isn't actually murderers et al. ; they are unlikely to be murdered but quite likely to be burgled.
To be fair to our BiB, I don't think they themselves can stop it, nor can any other single entity ; I think it requires a huge cultural shift at many levels because there is so much of it.
LotusElan17 said:
Case in point, they are relaxing the penalties associated with speeding offences, how magnanamous of them surely evidence that they are looking after the motorist. That is until you examine the underlying reasons, there are now so many motorists on 9 points that one more misdemeanour will bring about an automatic ban, good you may say, anyone who reaches 12 points is clearly a danger to society and should be hung drawn and quartered, apart from the vicar recently banned for breaking the speed limit on multiple occasions during the period of one week, a camera had been erected on a stretch of road which was badly signposted, he believed the limit to be 40 when it was actually 30 and he couldn't understand why he kept getting his photo taken!!! And he is not the only one. Now consider this, a huge number of motorists facing a ban, whats going to happen, 1) for a period of say 3-6 months they will no longer be filling up at the pumps and giving an extortionate level of tax to the Chancellor in the process, 2) they will take their car off the road declare SORN, surrender their tax disc and save possibly £90 in the process, the Chancellor is £90 out of pocket, 3) they will suspend or cancel their insurance saving a substantial amount of money on insurance premiums and preventing the Chancellor for collecting IPT (insurance premium tax), 4) they will no longer be using their cars thereby removing any risk of collecting parking tickets and speeding tickets, result less revenue for the good old Chancellor. The Government are not slow to realise when they are cutting off their nose to spite their face, therefore only the balatantly irresponsible or stupid motorist will be hit with a ban, now this is something I wholeheartedly agree with but it does not excuse the corrupt nature of the Government's thought process.
In a long round about way, this process is good. Hopefully they will make it so we only get fines, and no penalty points. Afterall, they DO want us to keep driving, keep our jobs, keep paying into the big pot of money they need!
Eventually we may see a more relaxed nature to points, ie, only for excessive speed for the conditions, not safe speed above the limit (ie, what most people are NOT being done for wrt speeding safely over the limit), so maybe we will see simply fines (which is better than fine AND points) for regular speeding, and only have points when it's clearly silly speeds, dangerous etc! Then at least we get safer roads as clearly bad drivers are removed.
I'd prefer that to fine AND points for even minor speeding anyway, and would seem it's the way it's going, slowly but surely.
Just hope they don't intend to up catchment though, just for the sake of it. Ultimately they should still only be where there are accident blackspots, and even then should be clearly posted as such to get the message across!
Hmmmmm
Dave
The other factor is that many drivers who are disqual lose their jobs and have to rely on state handouts (Social Security payments) to survive. For a man with a large family, mortgage, etc, this is significant.
What is interesting is that the actual effect on the individual for 4 minor speeding offences over 3 years is often much greater than the effect on someone who commits a more serious offence. For example, we learn that one of the murderers of the young girl tortured and killed had earlier been sentenced to 150 hours community service for assaulting a police officer.
Clearly this had little effect on him, whereas a professional person who needs to drive for a living and who is banned will probably lose his/her job, move back in career prospects, pay an increased insurance premium, not be able to pay the mortgage, their ultimate pension figure will be reduced, their marriage will suffer from the stress of it all and his/her children will be deprived of the things their friends take for granted. I know I would rather do 150 hours community service than face 6 months off the road. So, in real terms, 4 minor and victimless 'crimes' over a 3-year period are viewed more seriously than an assault on a Police Officer by an individual with lots of 'previous'. Where is the logic in this?
One point to consider: will this unbalanced justice lead to those disqualified for 4 minor offences just carrying on driving in otherwise legal cars for the 6 months in the hope that they won't get caught during that period. What will happen if they do get caught? They'll hardly be likely to go inside if you don't go inside for much more serious crimes.
How sad is all this?
What is interesting is that the actual effect on the individual for 4 minor speeding offences over 3 years is often much greater than the effect on someone who commits a more serious offence. For example, we learn that one of the murderers of the young girl tortured and killed had earlier been sentenced to 150 hours community service for assaulting a police officer.
Clearly this had little effect on him, whereas a professional person who needs to drive for a living and who is banned will probably lose his/her job, move back in career prospects, pay an increased insurance premium, not be able to pay the mortgage, their ultimate pension figure will be reduced, their marriage will suffer from the stress of it all and his/her children will be deprived of the things their friends take for granted. I know I would rather do 150 hours community service than face 6 months off the road. So, in real terms, 4 minor and victimless 'crimes' over a 3-year period are viewed more seriously than an assault on a Police Officer by an individual with lots of 'previous'. Where is the logic in this?
One point to consider: will this unbalanced justice lead to those disqualified for 4 minor offences just carrying on driving in otherwise legal cars for the 6 months in the hope that they won't get caught during that period. What will happen if they do get caught? They'll hardly be likely to go inside if you don't go inside for much more serious crimes.
How sad is all this?
Cooperman, you've hit the nail on the head.
I can't remember when it got posted but one of the BIB a while ago made a very similar point. The law abiding majority of the population will always be law abiding and are the easier target for law compliance due to the fact we have so much more to loose than joe bloggs low life chav scum, who has no job, lives perpetually on state handouts and has a very good working knowledge of the law from previous indescretions, how do you punish somebody who has nothing, you can't jail them (they're full) and has no respect for people or property? Meanwhile as you say, you or I for four minor indescretions could lose a license, job, house, wife etc etc, why is joe average punished so much harder than joe chav?
I can't remember when it got posted but one of the BIB a while ago made a very similar point. The law abiding majority of the population will always be law abiding and are the easier target for law compliance due to the fact we have so much more to loose than joe bloggs low life chav scum, who has no job, lives perpetually on state handouts and has a very good working knowledge of the law from previous indescretions, how do you punish somebody who has nothing, you can't jail them (they're full) and has no respect for people or property? Meanwhile as you say, you or I for four minor indescretions could lose a license, job, house, wife etc etc, why is joe average punished so much harder than joe chav?
The other factor is that many drivers who are disqual lose their jobs and have to rely on state handouts (Social Security payments) to survive. For a man with a large family, mortgage, etc, this is significant.
I think you'll find the amount paid to keep your morguage payment up is a big fat ZERO.
MoJo.
I think you'll find the amount paid to keep your morguage payment up is a big fat ZERO.
MoJo.
autismuk said:
[quote=mungo][quote=LotusElan17] Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, quite likely to be burgled.
To be fair to our BiB, I don't think they themselves can stop it, nor can any other single entity ; I think it requires a huge cultural shift at many levels because there is so much of it.
And how have we found ourselves in this position?
mojocvh said:
The other factor is that many drivers who are disqual lose their jobs and have to rely on state handouts (Social Security payments) to survive. For a man with a large family, mortgage, etc, this is significant.
I think you'll find the amount paid to keep your morguage payment up is a big fat ZERO.
MoJo.
Yes, I'm sure you are right, but there is a statutory requirement on the state to house the homeless, even if that means in bed-and breakfast accommodation. If unemployed you can get a housing benefit.
So, who here would continue to drive if disqualified for 6 months for 4 minor speeding offences - and be honest now?!
I'm just an OAP now (an age at which some on here think I should be taken off the road permanently, I know) and I still run a business 40 miles from my home. Hence I need to drive 80 miles a day from the village I live in. Public transport just would not work for me. If I were to be disqual, and I have a clean licence at present, I would really have to think hard about the consequences of not driving. I could have a car registered to a limited company and insured by the company, so a disqual driver would not show in an ANPR check. Any subsequent NiP for a camera offence would arrive with the Limited Company and would go unanswered, the company picking up any fine. The real risk is the driving without insurance, although the MIB still cover 3rd party risks, or so I believe. At the end of the day it's a judgement call and the risk of DWD would have to be balanced against the loss of my business, the jobs of my employees and my standard of living for what is left of my life without the income my business provides. With so many disqual drivers on the roads and with the number increasing as the cash-camera points tott up, the risk of imprisonment must be reducing as the prisons are already full. More likely, for a first offence, a longer disqual and bigger fine would result at which point I think I would not pay the fine, give up and go to live abroad, where I could continue to drive on my 'spare' duplicate UK licence. Disqual only applies in the UK.
That's the way this cash-camera nonsense is making me think, and I don't believe I'm alone in having these thoughts even though I know some here will deem me totally irresponsible. Anyone who says that they would never DWD, without that actually happening to them, may not be being honest with themselves.
Top Rant!!! 
...only had time to read half of it!!!
Seriously...can understand your frustration with the government, and with the police as a bureaucratic and target-driven organisation. But NOT with the majority of individual officers, who probably try very hard to do their jobs properly. Even in the face of such provocative and ineffective targets.
...only had time to read half of it!!!
Seriously...can understand your frustration with the government, and with the police as a bureaucratic and target-driven organisation. But NOT with the majority of individual officers, who probably try very hard to do their jobs properly. Even in the face of such provocative and ineffective targets.
john57 said:
Yes muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists and murderers are undoubtedly laughing themselves silly at the lack of police attention whilst if you are a motorist you can expect surveylance helicopters taking pictures of you eating a banana whilst driving.
Any coppers reading this post, for god sake don't you realise the damage you are causing to our society, a force that was once revered is now treated with suspicion and downright distaste by the public
I have read this bit and you couldn't be further from the truth. I regularly deal with muggers, burglars, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, rapists - no murderers yet but I have had people attempt to murder me!
These people know how proactively me and my team are looking for them too and they fear us more than anything!
Thankyou for telling me that all my hard 12 hour days of putting my life on the line trying to keep people safe are causing damage to society - thats really nice to hear
ANPR fair enough highlights more than just untaxed vehicles, but hang on a second, do you really think that criminals are so stupid as to use an illegal vehicle I think they might well have cottoned on by now.
Do you really think criminals don't use illegal, untaxed and uninsured vehicles ? Well, actually they do - rather alot .........
John57 - you're obviously a serving police officer so I bow to your greater knowledge on this point, I take it that you have manned the ANPR road blocks and have caught many criminals as a result. I still have an issue with that, a work colleague who admittedly is young and stupid bought a car on an impulse and decided to drive home without insurance tax or mot, it happens a lot more than most are prepared to admit. Despite looking decidedly shifty he was reported for his misdemeanours but at no time was he or his vehicle searched for stolen goods or drugs. He was not allowed to drive the vehicle and had to ring his Dad to turn up with valid insurance details so that his Dad could remove the car. It happened over a year ago and I believe his fine was in the region of £250, hardly a deterent. If someone like this balatantly flauts the law and gets away with barely a slap on the wrist what chance is there to catch the real criminals. Criminals are undoubtedly pond life but they are also pretty ingenious in their methods, if they were as stupid as perhaps you would like us to believe would your detection rates not be far better than those publicised?
I put my question to you as Mungo has not responded, do you genuinely believe that 30 officers and DVLA officials (in what ratio I don't know, I'll guess 24/6, you will probably correct me on that) on a ANPR road block is a good use of resources when you cannot attend a report of a suspicious person less than half a mile away?
Anyway I shouldn't have to state the obvious but some are taking my comments out of context, it is not a generalisation on all police, as in any walk of life there are some good ones and some bad ones, I am trying to highlight the fixation they have with motorists and the public perception as a result. It seems that the Government and Police are hell bent on criminalising every motorist to the point that it can only end in tears and recriminations.
Further to my initial post there was something else I wanted to add before the medication kicked in, well you try typing with your hands tied behind you back, not easy.
Speed Cameras, hurrah I hear you all cry as if that hasn't been tackled before, well quite.
Now we all know that the scamera is a cash generating machine that has little to do with road safety, indeed accident rates can actually go up when motorists are spending more time glancing at their speedo than being aware of what's actually ahead of them. In case you think that I have also fallen foul of these you'd be entirely wrong. 30 years driving, no points on license, although stopped for potential speeding twice, once detailed in my original post, let off with a warning, and believe it or not never had an accident, touch wood, and only ever had one parking ticket which just happened to be last month, I've put it down to experience. Been flashed once by a speed camera, some 20 years ago when they were in their infancy, no ticket probably didn't have a film, most didn't back then.
So what is my point on speed cameras, their initial cost and dependancy on the motorist to continually contravene the law is what bugs me. It has been muted that the Government are considering speed limiters fitted to new cars and subsequently retro-fitted to second hand cars. Trust me it aint gonna happen, why? Well if you are prevented from exceeding the prevailing speed limit whilst behind the wheel what would be the result, instant reduction of accidents and fatalities of course, not quite I'm afraid. What's to prevent you taking your eye off the road ahead and plough straight into a tree at unabated speed, or turn right in front of an oncoming car, or skid on ice or diesel, or hit the pedestrian walking between parked vehicles straight into your path. Unless the Government intend to entirely control your car by computer and allow you to be strapped in as a passenger then accidents will occur speed limited or not. Again surveys suggest that speed is not the predominant factor in most accidents. So accidents and fatalities will still occur, but crucially what won't occur is revenue from speeding offences, the vast expenditure of speed cameras and laser guns will overnight be totally wasted, Gatso's would be monuments to the stupidity of Government and Police officials, they would probably use them as hanging gallows to take their own worthless lives.
No the Government are devious and coniving but they certainly aren't stupid. What they almost certainly will do within the next 5-10 years is compulsorily fit GPS units to all cars, again this will make the proliferation of Gatso's pointless but as a cash generating excercise it will be second to none. Every motorist, without exception, will break the law at some point in time whether it be unwittingly or not. The GPS module will register your transgression and an automatic fine will result, no one will escape. Big brother scenario without a doubt, the Government and Police will know your every move whilst behind the wheel. If you are given free reign to speed then you will, the Government is banking on that very human trait, and I don't think they are far wrong, revenue will increase massively.
So what can be done, nothing I'm afraid its a fait acompli, will the last sane person to leave Britain please turn out the light.
Thank you for listening and may your God go with you.
No matron no, not the pyjamas again.
Speed Cameras, hurrah I hear you all cry as if that hasn't been tackled before, well quite.
Now we all know that the scamera is a cash generating machine that has little to do with road safety, indeed accident rates can actually go up when motorists are spending more time glancing at their speedo than being aware of what's actually ahead of them. In case you think that I have also fallen foul of these you'd be entirely wrong. 30 years driving, no points on license, although stopped for potential speeding twice, once detailed in my original post, let off with a warning, and believe it or not never had an accident, touch wood, and only ever had one parking ticket which just happened to be last month, I've put it down to experience. Been flashed once by a speed camera, some 20 years ago when they were in their infancy, no ticket probably didn't have a film, most didn't back then.
So what is my point on speed cameras, their initial cost and dependancy on the motorist to continually contravene the law is what bugs me. It has been muted that the Government are considering speed limiters fitted to new cars and subsequently retro-fitted to second hand cars. Trust me it aint gonna happen, why? Well if you are prevented from exceeding the prevailing speed limit whilst behind the wheel what would be the result, instant reduction of accidents and fatalities of course, not quite I'm afraid. What's to prevent you taking your eye off the road ahead and plough straight into a tree at unabated speed, or turn right in front of an oncoming car, or skid on ice or diesel, or hit the pedestrian walking between parked vehicles straight into your path. Unless the Government intend to entirely control your car by computer and allow you to be strapped in as a passenger then accidents will occur speed limited or not. Again surveys suggest that speed is not the predominant factor in most accidents. So accidents and fatalities will still occur, but crucially what won't occur is revenue from speeding offences, the vast expenditure of speed cameras and laser guns will overnight be totally wasted, Gatso's would be monuments to the stupidity of Government and Police officials, they would probably use them as hanging gallows to take their own worthless lives.
No the Government are devious and coniving but they certainly aren't stupid. What they almost certainly will do within the next 5-10 years is compulsorily fit GPS units to all cars, again this will make the proliferation of Gatso's pointless but as a cash generating excercise it will be second to none. Every motorist, without exception, will break the law at some point in time whether it be unwittingly or not. The GPS module will register your transgression and an automatic fine will result, no one will escape. Big brother scenario without a doubt, the Government and Police will know your every move whilst behind the wheel. If you are given free reign to speed then you will, the Government is banking on that very human trait, and I don't think they are far wrong, revenue will increase massively.
So what can be done, nothing I'm afraid its a fait acompli, will the last sane person to leave Britain please turn out the light.
Thank you for listening and may your God go with you.
No matron no, not the pyjamas again.
"Hi! Im JohnnyCab. Please state your destination, street name and number"
Responds " Go! GO! GO! GO! Anywhere!!!" before ripping Johnnycab off his mounts and driving himself....
a little later on:
" That will be 15 credits please"
Retorts " Sue me you dickhead!"..........
Kinda how i feel about limiters and tracking and pooters driving for me then......
Responds " Go! GO! GO! GO! Anywhere!!!" before ripping Johnnycab off his mounts and driving himself....
a little later on:
" That will be 15 credits please"
Retorts " Sue me you dickhead!"..........
Kinda how i feel about limiters and tracking and pooters driving for me then......
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