Road Tax - Why the need to produce docs?
Discussion
A few of the recent tax threads:
Getting pulled on the way to the post office and
picking up a car on a saturday
have got me thinking.
Why do you need to prove the insurance, ownership and MOT status of a car in order to tax it? Shirley all the govt care about is getting their hands on the money. What do they care? Having tax doesn't prove you own the car, prove it's insured or Mot'd...
I just don't understand why you can't walk into a post office and ask for "12 months road tax for band C please."
Getting pulled on the way to the post office and
picking up a car on a saturday
have got me thinking.
Why do you need to prove the insurance, ownership and MOT status of a car in order to tax it? Shirley all the govt care about is getting their hands on the money. What do they care? Having tax doesn't prove you own the car, prove it's insured or Mot'd...
I just don't understand why you can't walk into a post office and ask for "12 months road tax for band C please."
Actually if you read the leaflet you get with the new online MOT it says something to the effect that the MOT certificate means nothing and that the only way to tell if a vehicle has a current MoT is to interrogate the computer.
Computer say yes, or no, or like Jim in Vicar of Dibley, No No No No No No .... Yes.
If I get chance, and not beaten to it by some other sad geek, will post the actual text of the leaflet.
The assertion is that this is to stop the fraudsters and chummies dealing in false documents.
I guess in time ,if not already, the tax and insurance issue will go the same way.
Which would mean the end of producers if the base data in DVLA, MIB and, for all I know, VOSA wasn't such utter carp.
Computer say yes, or no, or like Jim in Vicar of Dibley, No No No No No No .... Yes.
If I get chance, and not beaten to it by some other sad geek, will post the actual text of the leaflet.
The assertion is that this is to stop the fraudsters and chummies dealing in false documents.
I guess in time ,if not already, the tax and insurance issue will go the same way.
Which would mean the end of producers if the base data in DVLA, MIB and, for all I know, VOSA wasn't such utter carp.
shuvitupya said:
Having tax doesn't prove you own the car, prove it's insured or Mot'd...
I think you need MOT and Insurance to get a tax disc at post office.
Yes, and Raify is asking why. I guess it's meant to be a deterent based in the (poor) assumption people will not drive an un-taxed car so will HAVE to get MOT and Insurance.
Raify said:
...snip...
Why do you need to prove the insurance, ownership and MOT status of a car in order to tax it? Shirley all the govt care about is getting their hands on the money. What do they care? Having tax doesn't prove you own the car, prove it's insured or Mot'd...
I just don't understand why you can't walk into a post office and ask for "12 months road tax for band C please."
Because contrary to the received wisdom often bandied about, the govt do have some interest in trying to keep the cars on the road legal, ie with their owner, insured and MOT'd. The visible proof is a tax disc. This means that by and large, people will have had to show their current docs to get a tax disc.
This as we know is by no means foolproof (esp if you have no fear of getting caught), but is a broad-brush approach to keep those who are afraid of the consequences of illegal action in line with the law. Having a current MOT is a broad-brush approach to keeping a vehicle road-worthy. No bad thing.
Graham
As from last year - MOT certs etc are kept on some database - and the cert has some chip. This is to enable verification of MOT online ...I do not have that much faith in any of this - hasten to add. Get a digit wrong .. and ... 
I tax my cars at the Post Office. Known to folks in the local Post Office too... still have to produce my documents though...
You have to have originals with you - copies don't do. Guess it proves car being "taxed" is insured and roadworthy as at the MOT snapshot of its "health check on that day".
Does not then prove "car ownership" - whether on line or in flesh at post office. Anyone can do this job - provided the documents relating to the car in question are genuine and originals.
>> Edited by Mad Moggie on Sunday 26th March 14:35
I tax my cars at the Post Office. Known to folks in the local Post Office too... still have to produce my documents though...
You have to have originals with you - copies don't do. Guess it proves car being "taxed" is insured and roadworthy as at the MOT snapshot of its "health check on that day".
Does not then prove "car ownership" - whether on line or in flesh at post office. Anyone can do this job - provided the documents relating to the car in question are genuine and originals.
>> Edited by Mad Moggie on Sunday 26th March 14:35
The VEL is an utter waste of money and proves absolutely nothing. It keeps the civil servants at the DVLA and Post Office employed and little else. Insurance can be searched for on PNC and MOTs should be in the near future. The presence of a VEL bears no relevance whatsoever to the legality or otherwise of the person behind the wheel of the car.
With ANPR spreading, the uninsured will ping up. The revenue should be switched to fuel which as said would mean the alleged polluter would pay.
With ANPR spreading, the uninsured will ping up. The revenue should be switched to fuel which as said would mean the alleged polluter would pay.
xxplod said:
The VEL is an utter waste of money and proves absolutely nothing. It keeps the civil servants at the DVLA and Post Office employed and little else. Insurance can be searched for on PNC and MOTs should be in the near future. The presence of a VEL bears no relevance whatsoever to the legality or otherwise of the person behind the wheel of the car.
With ANPR spreading, the uninsured will ping up. The revenue should be switched to fuel which as said would mean the alleged polluter would pay.
Exactly as I suspected! If we can just abolish road tax discs and Ebay, I'll never have to suffer again in a Post OFfice!
xxplod said:
The VEL is an utter waste of money and proves absolutely nothing. It keeps the civil servants at the DVLA and Post Office employed and little else. Insurance can be searched for on PNC and MOTs should be in the near future. The presence of a VEL bears no relevance whatsoever to the legality or otherwise of the person behind the wheel of the car.
With ANPR spreading, the uninsured will ping up. The revenue should be switched to fuel which as said would mean the alleged polluter would pay.
The tax disc shows that you had a valid insurance certificate and a valid MOT certificate on the day of purchase. Remember in the days when the TAX disc was invented fake certificates were not high on the list of possible problems.
If the goverment were really only interested in taking your money then the disc would cost a lot more, it's a scary ammount in some countries, and no certificates would be required to be shown.
Your point is taken that in the era of ANPR and rampant fraud the disc is a tadge obsolete but it still makes a good visual roadside check for a Plod looking for an excuse to lean on someone who he suspects might be taking the mick. Also take note that computer databases are not the be all and end all of dealing with crimes.
Why can't we have an MOT disc with production of a valid insurance certificate as part of the MOT test? The tax could then be added to fuel and the total revenue generated ring fenced to be spent on roads and road transport issues.
Why not the French system? Abolish the complex (inceasingly so now) road tax system and require drivers to show an insurance and MOT disc in the car.
I'm sure that the original idea was to ensure that cars had MOT and insurance but you really think that they need such a complex multi-banded system for that? I mean really, fuel tax alone is far simpler and has way more inmpact...
Rob
I'm sure that the original idea was to ensure that cars had MOT and insurance but you really think that they need such a complex multi-banded system for that? I mean really, fuel tax alone is far simpler and has way more inmpact...
Rob
Cymtriks - the VEL shows that somebody had a valid insurance and MOT on one day out of 365. It is next to worthless. Loads of scrotes pool cars will have a few months rent in the window - they're still unlicensed and uninsured - it proves nothing. BiB will always check for insurance and MOT even if the car was taxed that day. What is to stop the banned driver registering a car to their Gran and insuring it in her name for peanuts, (avoinds an ANPR camera pinging) taxing it and then driving it? Nothing - a colleague dealt with just such a case recently.
Flat in Fifth said:
Actually if you read the leaflet you get with the new online MOT it says something to the effect that the MOT certificate means nothing and that the only way to tell if a vehicle has a current MoT is to interrogate the computer.
Computer say yes, or no, or like Jim in Vicar of Dibley, No No No No No No .... Yes.
If I get chance, and not beaten to it by some other sad geek, will post the actual text of the leaflet.
The assertion is that this is to stop the fraudsters and chummies dealing in false documents.
I guess in time ,if not already, the tax and insurance issue will go the same way.
Which would mean the end of producers if the base data in DVLA, MIB and, for all I know, VOSA wasn't such utter carp.
Just to follow up on that promise somewhat belatedly. (Phrases involvling not knowing whether to have a sh.. shave or a haircut indicate degree of activity at the moment)
The leaflet is here
Note the following text in the leaflet
Vosa leaflet said:
About the new certificate
The certificate (VT20) you now receive is your receipt for the MOT test. It shows the information that will be kept on the MOT database. The receipt should no longer be relied on asproof of an MOT. Only the computer record can prove a vehicle has a valid MOT.
What it means for you
The MOT computer record shows definitively whether a vehicle has a valid MOT or not, so
criminals are no longer given the opportunity to falsify MOT documents.
xxplod said:
Cymtriks - the VEL shows that somebody had a valid insurance and MOT on one day out of 365. It is next to worthless. Loads of scrotes pool cars will have a few months rent in the window - they're still unlicensed and uninsured - it proves nothing. BiB will always check for insurance and MOT even if the car was taxed that day. What is to stop the banned driver registering a car to their Gran and insuring it in her name for peanuts, (avoinds an ANPR camera pinging) taxing it and then driving it? Nothing - a colleague dealt with just such a case recently.
Yes, but the era when car tax was introduced was less concerned with the possibility of dishonesty and tended to assume honesty in the average citizen.
Any check only reveals that a car is legal at the time of the check.
Until recently the computer power necessary to give a real world improvement to the old tax disc system simply didn't exist! Only a few years ago the only real method of checking for insurance and MOT avoidance was to send hoards of inspectors to manually check every car tax disc. Would you like that situation and the endless road blocks and producers that would have resulted?
Even now many are suspicious that the new computerised system will actually be able to work properly.
Given the above I seriously suggest that the tax disc system was a reasonable method to use untill about yesterday.
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