Cat Replacement Pipes - legalities and insurance

[ayjay]

I'm picking up my new Elise next weekend and have instructed the garage to ensure that the cat is fitted before delivery (not only because they are also supplying it with 12 months MOT).

However...

What would happen if I was to become like 95% of other elise drivers in this world and fit a cat replacement pipe after the MOT?

I am always sure to declare any mod to an insurer... but would an insurer cover a car with a cat-rep-pipe???

If I had a prang and the car was inspected and found to have a cat-rep-pipe would it be deemed unroadworthy and therefore would my insurance be void even if i had declared it???

I can't think that all those elise drivers are scooting about with effectively 'uninsured' cars...so what is the legal viewpoint?

Cheers

[slowly slowly]

Is there not a sports cat?

[sultanbrown]

If it's declared then what is the problem?
There is no legal necessity for your car to have a cat fitted, other than when sold as new.

[ayjay]

I was under the impression that if the car was built to have a CAT, running it on a public road without one was illegal on the basis of emissions etc... The car would not pass it's MOT without one, so therefore it must be 'unroadworthy'?

[Mr E]

ayjay said:

I was under the impression that if the car was built to have a CAT, running it on a public road without one was illegal on the basis of emissions etc... The car would not pass it's MOT without one, so therefore it must be 'unroadworthy'?

It is an offense to fail a road side emissions test, yes.

Mine has no cat, and is declared to the insurance company as such. They, quite frankly, couldn't give a monkeys.

[ayjay]

the insurance don't give a monkeys until you have a crash and they send their inspector chap to try and find reasons not to pay out...

this is fine if you are just claiming to fix your car... but if you have caused someone an injury and the insurance company void your policy based upon the car being legally unroadworthy... you could be right-royally-f%*ked.

okay,,, maybe i'm being a little extreme,, but i don't want to set myself up for a fall.

no point in paying upwards of £700 for an insurance policy that could turn out to be worthless.

[slowly slowly]

According to the MOT a J reg car if fitted with a cat can have it removed and a K reg car has to have a cat fitted.
If your cat is duff your car will fail its MOT so surely you can`t just remove a faulty cat and replace it with a length of pipe.

IMO if its a J you can, if younger than a K you can`t.

[ayjay]

the cat isn't duff.. fitting a cat replacement pipe just makes the car sound much fruitier and also gives a tiny power increase (although far less than the manufacturers of cat-rep-pipes would have you think.

[slowly slowly]

Phone Nigel at Blue Flame Exhaust in Skelmersdale i`v had 3 systems fitted to 3 cars.

He`s the man to talk to.

[Jay GTI]

ayjay said:

If I had a prang and the car was inspected and found to have a cat-rep-pipe would it be deemed unroadworthy and therefore would my insurance be void even if i had declared it???

No, the car may not be strictly roadworthy and would not pass an MOT without a Cat, but an MOT only proves the car was roadworthy on the day it was issued. If the car had serious known defects that directly contributed to the accident, like bald tyres that you obviously should have checked before starting your journey, then the insurance company would then consider not paying out. However, is a Cat is missing, it isn't going to cause any accidents and if it's declared then there won't be a problem.

[zumbruk]

Jay GTI said:

ayjay said: If I had a prang and the car was inspected and found to have a cat-rep-pipe would it be deemed unroadworthy and therefore would my insurance be void even if i had declared it??? No,

Wrong. In order to avoid a large damages payout, the insurers will go over the car with a fine tooth comb, and if there is *anything* they can use to void the policy, they will. There's almost certainly a clause in the policy which says that modifications have to be notified, and if this isn't, you're screwed. Enjoy paying off that £2M damages claim for the rest of your life, won't you?

So, tell them *everything*! As someone said, they won't give a damn, so long as you *tell* them. And get it in writing!

[g_attrill]

Jay GTI said:

No, the car may not be strictly roadworthy and would not pass an MOT without a Cat, but an MOT only proves the car was roadworthy on the day it was issued. If the car had serious known defects that directly contributed to the accident, like bald tyres that you obviously should have checked before starting your journey, then the insurance company would then consider not paying out. However, is a Cat is missing, it isn't going to cause any accidents and if it's declared then there won't be a problem.

IIRC "roadworthiness" only covers safety related items such as suspension, steering, tyres, brakes and structural integrity, so lack of a catalytic convertor won't make it "unroadworthy" in law, however your overall comment about the insurer is correct I think (although I'm not an expert)

Also, a catalytic converter isn't a testable item for the MOT so the tester shouldn't care - if it passes the emissions levels then it's ok. However as mentioned it's part of the C&U regs that one is fitted to every car (after Aug 92?) where it was fitted at the factory, so if it wasn't fitted it would fail at a roadside inspection before it was even put on the emissions machine.

Gareth

[Pigeon]

Well, the obvious response to idiotic C&U regs that specify means instead of ends is to take the cat off, knock the matrix out, stick a piece of straight pipe inside and put it back on.

[BliarOut]

zumbruk said:

Jay GTI said: ayjay said: If I had a prang and the car was inspected and found to have a cat-rep-pipe would it be deemed unroadworthy and therefore would my insurance be void even if i had declared it??? No, Wrong. In order to avoid a large damages payout, the insurers will go over the car with a fine tooth comb, and if there is *anything* they can use to void the policy, they will. There's almost certainly a clause in the policy which says that modifications have to be notified, and if this isn't, you're screwed. Enjoy paying off that £2M damages claim for the rest of your life, won't you? So, tell them *everything*! As someone said, they won't give a damn, so long as you *tell* them. And get it in writing!

Ahem, they CAN'T wriggle out of the third party part of the payment, that will ALWAYS be covered, however your own damages might not be if there is an undeclared mod.

[Mr E]

ayjay said:

tiny power increase (although far less than the manufacturers of cat-rep-pipes would have you think.

Worth about 1 to 1.5 psi dependant on atmospheric conditions in my car. That's a not unheathly amount of extra shove.

It also dramatically improves spool time.

[Mr Whippy]

Problem is the faff swapping come MOT time if the car can't pass the MOT without the Catalytic converter.

I know a sports cat is more, but you put it on and forget it, and a modern HQ cat is going to be better than an old one anyway...

Dave

[vonhosen]

zumbruk said:

Jay GTI said: ayjay said: If I had a prang and the car was inspected and found to have a cat-rep-pipe would it be deemed unroadworthy and therefore would my insurance be void even if i had declared it??? No, Wrong. In order to avoid a large damages payout, the insurers will go over the car with a fine tooth comb, and if there is *anything* they can use to void the policy, they will. There's almost certainly a clause in the policy which says that modifications have to be notified, and if this isn't, you're screwed. Enjoy paying off that £2M damages claim for the rest of your life, won't you? So, tell them *everything*! As someone said, they won't give a damn, so long as you *tell* them. And get it in writing!

They can't void the policy for such things & they can't evade third party liabilities. They can use the fact you haven't disclosed matters to refuse payment on your car if fully comp & they can sue you for any 3rd party losses they have in some circumstances.

[deeps]

ayjay said:

the cat isn't duff.. fitting a cat replacement pipe just makes the car sound much fruitier and also gives a tiny power increase (although far less than the manufacturers of cat-rep-pipes would have you think.

Depends on the car though. Don't know much about the Elise, if it's normally aspirated it will only induct very slightly more air on each stroke by de-catting.

If it's turbo'd a de-cat pipe will give you a big power increase. Mine went from .7 bar to 1.2 bar boost, so swiftly had to install an EVC to control it and not run lean!