NIP, A1 50mph limit
Discussion
Banged to rights, which was fair enough, I sped up between two Gatsos only to find a Scamera van between them.
As I went passed it I checked my speed, an indicated 70mph (50mph limit).
NIP comes through today, a claimed 77mph (that would be an indicated 80mph - very surprised if that was really the case).
Putting aside my disbelief, what's the likely outcome for 77 in a 50mph once I've returned the NIP?
As I went passed it I checked my speed, an indicated 70mph (50mph limit).
NIP comes through today, a claimed 77mph (that would be an indicated 80mph - very surprised if that was really the case).
Putting aside my disbelief, what's the likely outcome for 77 in a 50mph once I've returned the NIP?
According to the guidelines, 77 in a 50 is just beyond the threshold where the offence can be dealt with by Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty (£60 & 3 points). At 27mph over the limit, you may be facing a visit to the Mags Court and potentially a higher fine and more points 
...
Purely for interest
, what is the stated location of the alleged speeding offence - exactly as printed on the NIP ? Mail me if you want to keep it off open forum..
Might be time to consider a visit to www.pepipoo.com ...
... Purely for interest
, what is the stated location of the alleged speeding offence - exactly as printed on the NIP ? Mail me if you want to keep it off open forum.. Might be time to consider a visit to www.pepipoo.com ...
Hmm, this is a difficult one with a lot of factors.
I know that on a motorway with a 70 limit, the fastest speed which can be dealt with with a Fixed Penalty Notice by the side of the road is 26mph over the limit. I am not sure about whether this is still relevant for the 'automated' cash cows, but if it does, you may have to be dealt with at magistrates court.
This is bad as according to their guidelines, doing more than 26mph over in a 50 zone gets 6 points/and/or consider disqualification for 14 to 56 days.
Although the laserscamera is obviously wrong, I would be tempted to take the 3 points and £60 if it is offered. I lost a laser case when I tried to disprove the evidence, however I do know of individual cases which have been won, and some which have been dropped when the scamerati realise that they may be worng about the set-up of the camera etc.
I know that on a motorway with a 70 limit, the fastest speed which can be dealt with with a Fixed Penalty Notice by the side of the road is 26mph over the limit. I am not sure about whether this is still relevant for the 'automated' cash cows, but if it does, you may have to be dealt with at magistrates court.
This is bad as according to their guidelines, doing more than 26mph over in a 50 zone gets 6 points/and/or consider disqualification for 14 to 56 days.
Although the laserscamera is obviously wrong, I would be tempted to take the 3 points and £60 if it is offered. I lost a laser case when I tried to disprove the evidence, however I do know of individual cases which have been won, and some which have been dropped when the scamerati realise that they may be worng about the set-up of the camera etc.
justinp1 said:
Although the laserscamera is obviously wrong, I would be tempted to take the 3 points and £60 if it is offered. I lost a laser case when I tried to disprove the evidence, however I do know of individual cases which have been won, and some which have been dropped when the scamerati realise that they may be worng about the set-up of the camera etc.
I've no problem with taking 3 points/£60, just very annoyed that they reckon 77mph which would be an indicated 80mph on my speedo. I'd swear I was doing no more than 70mph.
monkey49 said:
Although the laserscamera is obviously wrong, I would be tempted to take the 3 points and £60 if it is offered. I lost a laser case when I tried to disprove the evidence, however I do know of individual cases which have been won, and some which have been dropped when the scamerati realise that they may be worng about the set-up of the camera etc.
I've no problem with taking 3 points/£60, just very annoyed that they reckon 77mph which would be an indicated 80mph on my speedo. I'd swear I was doing no more than 70mph.
I completely agree with you. I have been in the same situation myself twice, I am the same type of person where I will not accept a punishment my the state for something I have not done. When I was accused of running a red light I won, but fighting a laser speedmeter case, I lost and lost at appeal, leaving me about £1500 poorer.
Unfortunately sometimes whether you win or lose a case is not whether the evidence is correct or not... it is whether the CPS act fairly, the witnesses tell the truth, and there are enough holes in their case to prove yourself not guilty...
monkey49 said:
Purely for interest
Verbatim: "A1 Northbound Sandy, from A603 to opp St Neots Roa"
Bugger... I've been MUCH faster than that down there
Evil barstewards.monkey49 said:
Purely for interest
Verbatim: "A1 Northbound Sandy, from A603 to opp St Neots Roa"
That seems to be a very popular place for a talivan, north and south bound usualy at the point where it changes from 50 - 60 or vice versa depending on the direction you are travelling. There are enough cameras on that stretch to make it a very cynical location for a talivan.
As Justinp rightly states at the speed they allege takes you into the realms of a Court appearance. The idea is that they can look at you and impose a higher fine/points than a FPN or possible disqualification.
You say you are adamant that you were doing 70 which falls within the ACPO Guidelines for a FPN (£60 and 3 points).
If a Court appearance results then bear in mind a "Newton hearing" resulting from the case R v Newton 1982:
A Newton hearing occurs when the defendant has pleaded Guilty to the offence but on the basis of a different version of the facts that that of the prosecution.
If the prosecution and the defence are unable to agree thge facts of the offence the Court may hold a Newton hearing to resolve the dispute and ascertain tyhe correct basis for sentence. However such a hearing is not necesssary if the difference in the two versions of facts does not affect the sentence (Note the lesser of a FPN)
At a Newton hearing the case will then be heard in the usual manner with arguments made and witnesses called on the relevant disputed facts.
IIRC then someone posted a couple of years ago of having being involved in such a hearing. If they are not forthcoming again then suggest a natter with a Solicitor well versed in traffic law.
dvd
You say you are adamant that you were doing 70 which falls within the ACPO Guidelines for a FPN (£60 and 3 points).
If a Court appearance results then bear in mind a "Newton hearing" resulting from the case R v Newton 1982:
A Newton hearing occurs when the defendant has pleaded Guilty to the offence but on the basis of a different version of the facts that that of the prosecution.
If the prosecution and the defence are unable to agree thge facts of the offence the Court may hold a Newton hearing to resolve the dispute and ascertain tyhe correct basis for sentence. However such a hearing is not necesssary if the difference in the two versions of facts does not affect the sentence (Note the lesser of a FPN)
At a Newton hearing the case will then be heard in the usual manner with arguments made and witnesses called on the relevant disputed facts.
IIRC then someone posted a couple of years ago of having being involved in such a hearing. If they are not forthcoming again then suggest a natter with a Solicitor well versed in traffic law.
dvd
That's interesting DVD.
How would it work in the real world though? I plead guilty to 70mph rather than 77mph. The CPS turn up in court with a picture from the police with 77mph printed on it as 'evidence'.
Surely the magistrate would consider that as 'proof' and that's the end of it?
>> Edited by monkey49 on Tuesday 28th March 15:10
How would it work in the real world though? I plead guilty to 70mph rather than 77mph. The CPS turn up in court with a picture from the police with 77mph printed on it as 'evidence'.
Surely the magistrate would consider that as 'proof' and that's the end of it?
>> Edited by monkey49 on Tuesday 28th March 15:10
Have not been involved myself in such a case but I would consider entering a plea of Not Guilty to the summons at the start and request all evidence under disclosure rules. Certificate of calibration etc.
From that if able to pick holes I could in what supplied then change plea to Guilty and request Newton hearing and try an convince Mags it was 70.
You never know, evidence may disclose a total loophole that could get you off.
But as stated a session with a Solicitor (free at CAB) may be beneficial.
dvd
From that if able to pick holes I could in what supplied then change plea to Guilty and request Newton hearing and try an convince Mags it was 70.
You never know, evidence may disclose a total loophole that could get you off.
But as stated a session with a Solicitor (free at CAB) may be beneficial.
dvd
monkey49 said:
How would it work in the real world though? I plead guilty to 70mph rather than 77mph. The CPS turn up in court with a picture from the police with 77mph printed on it as 'evidence'.
Surely the magistrate would consider that as 'proof' and that's the end of it?
That's pretty much my take it...
IMO, the SCP are not likely to admit in a trial / Newton Hearing / anywhere that their equipment may have been giving or is even capable of giving inaccurate measurements.
They will maintain that the equipment is Home Office Type Approved, was calibrated, was checked prior to and after the enforcement period, was used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and that they do not produce erroneous readings - period. And yes, I think that the Mags will believe them...
edit to add:
You are only entitled to view the evidence they have against you (and be supplied with CalCerts, operator's witness statements, etc) once you have received a summons and a plea of Not Guilty has been entered.
You could make their life easy by completing and returning the s.172 form and see what arrives in the post. Could be a CoFP, could be a summons.. If you so desired, you could still elect to have the case heard by the Mags, even upon receipt of a CoFP..
You would be making their life trickier by submitting a PACE witness statement - see pepipoo. A PACE WS is not a cast iron get out of jail free card and, from what I know, Beds' SCP are 'inconsistent' in their response to it.. A summons may still arise.
You could ignore everything and you would probably receive a summons for failure to furnish driver details (no chance of a prosecution for the alleged speeding offence). Upon conviction for FTF, you would probably receive 3 points, a fine of £200-£300 (Max £1000 but unheard of) and a potentially insurance hiking MS90 endorsement on your licence. You'd need to get some online quotes to see how much difference in premiums an MS90 would make...
It has already been mentioned that tackling the SCPs on a defence based upon the inaccuracies of their equipment has its pitfalls. It may be, for instance, that you ask for disclosure of the full session video and they drop the case forthwith (if the video shows 'fishing', errors, spurious speed measurements, etc).
But be warned, there was a case recently where a biker challenged the accuracy of the LTI20-20 and the scammers flew in the MD of the manufacturer (First Class) from the States as well as Tele-Traffic (UK)'s MD as expert witnesses. The biker lost his appeal and costs were awarded against him - it ran into thousands..
Like DVD, I have no direct experience of Newton Hearings so can't really comment...
>> Edited by SS2. on Tuesday 28th March 15:58
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