Mother gaoled for dangerous driving
Discussion
Some on here may remember news of a crash on the Oxford bypass last year where a Citroen Xsara containing a mother, her son and six of his friends, lost control and caused a collision killing three of the boys in the Citroen and the driver of another car.
She (the mother driving the Citroen) has today been gaoled for 2 years and disqualified from driving for 6 years for dangerous driving (although the local news claims she will only serve one year).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/ox
In the past few weeks, work has been completed on installing a concrete barrier in the central reservation along this stretch of the bypass along with a 50mph speed limit being imposed.
2 years imprisonment was unsurprisingly deemed inadequate by the families of Marshall Haynes, Liam Hastings, Josh Bartlett and Howard Hillsdon all killed in the collision.
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 10th April 18:41
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 10th April 18:42
She (the mother driving the Citroen) has today been gaoled for 2 years and disqualified from driving for 6 years for dangerous driving (although the local news claims she will only serve one year).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/ox
In the past few weeks, work has been completed on installing a concrete barrier in the central reservation along this stretch of the bypass along with a 50mph speed limit being imposed.
2 years imprisonment was unsurprisingly deemed inadequate by the families of Marshall Haynes, Liam Hastings, Josh Bartlett and Howard Hillsdon all killed in the collision.
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 10th April 18:41
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 10th April 18:42
So the speed limit was 70 mph und they reduce to 50 mph because of this incident?
She had overloaded the car.. there were two in boot.. of this car.. und 13 year old boys are not small..
She also failed to ensure seat belts und they were on high because of birthday party as well..
I am afraid I ask about transport if mine are going to some party like this .. und offer to help ferry so as not to overburden one parent und one car.. but that's me.. und Ted .. (my Mad Doc).
I suspect she receive what will seem to Brake etc "low sentence" because of remorse und because her own boy suffer brain damage as result of this.
Ist all too common.. overloading cars. Makes it difficult to control .. handle. Speed cams do not check this.. und nor do CCTV cams.. Read in paper today . that police too buisy to view this as more busy viewing speed cam footage ... which does not detect overcrowded cars any more than defective ones with defective drivers within speed limit.
No doubt this road will now have a shiny new speedcurb/redspeed as result of all this one tragedy..
I think many will jump on bandwagon und condemn this mother for being a typical mumpty
I can see how this overload occur .. you see all the time.
Have to say when I was child .. und went to parties .. ice skating parties, cinema, bowls, ski parties... normal play parties .. ballet.. theatre.. whatever... more than one parent drove groups in their cars und I even remember one pal's parent hiring a minibus once. Perhaps a Swiss thing..
She had overloaded the car.. there were two in boot.. of this car.. und 13 year old boys are not small..
She also failed to ensure seat belts und they were on high because of birthday party as well..
I am afraid I ask about transport if mine are going to some party like this .. und offer to help ferry so as not to overburden one parent und one car.. but that's me.. und Ted .. (my Mad Doc).
I suspect she receive what will seem to Brake etc "low sentence" because of remorse und because her own boy suffer brain damage as result of this.
Ist all too common.. overloading cars. Makes it difficult to control .. handle. Speed cams do not check this.. und nor do CCTV cams.. Read in paper today . that police too buisy to view this as more busy viewing speed cam footage ... which does not detect overcrowded cars any more than defective ones with defective drivers within speed limit.
No doubt this road will now have a shiny new speedcurb/redspeed as result of all this one tragedy..
I think many will jump on bandwagon und condemn this mother for being a typical mumpty
I can see how this overload occur .. you see all the time. Have to say when I was child .. und went to parties .. ice skating parties, cinema, bowls, ski parties... normal play parties .. ballet.. theatre.. whatever... more than one parent drove groups in their cars und I even remember one pal's parent hiring a minibus once. Perhaps a Swiss thing..
Seems very odd for someone who's a mum and a nurse to stick kids in the boot, load the car on top of that, then gun it. Weird. However, as a counterpoint to HW's post, the sentiment of which I entirely understand, it seems rather random to punish people based on the coutcome of a lapse in standards expected, rather than the degree of that lapse, which has until now been the yardstick iirc.
This is pandering to vengeance instincts imo, and crucially as said it turns justice into a lottery as the outcome is by chance or fortune or call it whatever. Is society served by imprisoning a mum in her 40's of (presumably) previous good character? She's punished severely already as a result of what happened. Can't say it will act as a deterrent as there aren't mums or anyone else queuing up to do this entire sequence. Just vengeance then, and that's a very base instinct to pander to. Some may regard this as lenient, but I'm not generally that way inclined as far as crime and punishment is concerned, I'd say for the most part I'm with HW.
This is pandering to vengeance instincts imo, and crucially as said it turns justice into a lottery as the outcome is by chance or fortune or call it whatever. Is society served by imprisoning a mum in her 40's of (presumably) previous good character? She's punished severely already as a result of what happened. Can't say it will act as a deterrent as there aren't mums or anyone else queuing up to do this entire sequence. Just vengeance then, and that's a very base instinct to pander to. Some may regard this as lenient, but I'm not generally that way inclined as far as crime and punishment is concerned, I'd say for the most part I'm with HW.
turbobloke said:
...it seems rather random to punish people based on the coutcome of a lapse in standards expected, rather than the degree of that lapse, which has until now been the yardstick iirc.
This is pandering to vengeance instincts imo, and crucially as said it turns justice into a lottery as the outcome is by chance or fortune or call it whatever.
It's pretty standard that the consequences are taken into account. Look at Gary Hart: his LR left the motorway - not a big deal. Until a train hit it.
deva link said:Agreed, it is now. I'm not convinced it should be like that, that's all - how can justice really be just when the outcome from a given lapse is almost entirely random?
...it seems rather random to punish people based on the coutcome of a lapse in standards expected, rather than the degree of that lapse, which has until now been the yardstick iirc.
This is pandering to vengeance instincts imo, and crucially as said it turns justice into a lottery as the outcome is by chance or fortune or call it whatever.
It's pretty standard that the consequences are taken into account. Look at Gary Hart: his LR left the motorway - not a big deal. Until a train hit it.
turbobloke said:
...it seems rather random to punish people based on the coutcome of a lapse in standards expected, rather than the degree of that lapse, which has until now been the yardstick iirc.
This is pandering to vengeance instincts imo, and crucially as said it turns justice into a lottery as the outcome is by chance or fortune or call it whatever.
It's pretty standard that the consequences are taken into account. Look at Gary Hart: his LR left the motorway - not a big deal. Until a train hit it.
Because we should all take responsibility for our actions and their consequences maybe???
Sean
LexSport said:
............
2 years imprisonment was unsurprisingly deemed inadequate by the families of Marshall Haynes, Liam Hastings, Josh Bartlett and Howard Hillsdon all killed in the collision.
Although my sympathy goes to the families of those that lost loved ones, one must ask the question - "Why hadn't THEY checked the travel arrangements for their children and made sure they were adequate?"
Easy to condemn someone else AFTER the accident - if either of the other parents had picked their own children up/arranged taxi etc the car wouldn't have been overloaded and the accident MAY never have happened.
NugentS said:Agreed, no problem with that as it stands.
...it seems rather random to punish people based on the coutcome of a lapse in standards expected, rather than the degree of that lapse, which has until now been the yardstick iirc.
This is pandering to vengeance instincts imo, and crucially as said it turns justice into a lottery as the outcome is by chance or fortune or call it whatever.
It's pretty standard that the consequences are taken into account. Look at Gary Hart: his LR left the motorway - not a big deal. Until a train hit it.
Because we should all take responsibility for our actions and their consequences maybe???
Sean
Especially if a reasonable person could see what the consequences will be. In the case of some events, the consequences will be trivial say damage only, or in others of a closely similar nature, total tragedy - with the outcome depending on pure chance. Luck or bad luck or whatever is the determining factor, and the 'perpetrator' will be unaware of the possible outcome because of an unlikely chain of events. It's that Russian Roulette element that doesn't seem right.
Genuinely awaiting persuasion that justice in terms of sentencing should be like tossing a coin.
turbobloke said:Nail on the head.
It's that Russian Roulette element that doesn't seem right.
Surely one ought to be held accountable for the degree of risk one took? You can look at it like this: outcome is the product of two factors; risk taken and luck. By defintion, you have no influence over the luck element, so how can you held accountable for it? How can you possibly be considered more guilty because you were unlucky?
Dangerous driving (legal definition) is that which "falls far short of the standard expected of the competent and careful driver". Putting aside the issue of the car being overloaded, it seems to me unlikely (46 years old mother, 25 years nursing vocation) that there was anything about this woman's driving (whether in general or on this occasion in particular) that fell far short of the standards actually found in a significant section (probably a majority) of the driving population. If that is true, it follows that a majority of the population are from time to time "driving dangerously" and, in the right (wrong) combination of circumstances (depending entirely on chance), may become responsible for a serious accident from which a DD or CDBDD charge will follow.
This is the fine line which the majority of drivers (those who do not really 'care' about driving and who do not see it as an activity worth striving to do better) unkowingly tread.
The lesson which the authorities should learn from this is that the path to improved road safety lies in improving driving standards. All they are actually interested in, apparently, is more speed enforcement, driven by the fools gold belief that 'slower speeds = safer drivers'. As is so spectularly demonstrated by this tragedy, that entirely misses the point.
This is the fine line which the majority of drivers (those who do not really 'care' about driving and who do not see it as an activity worth striving to do better) unkowingly tread.
The lesson which the authorities should learn from this is that the path to improved road safety lies in improving driving standards. All they are actually interested in, apparently, is more speed enforcement, driven by the fools gold belief that 'slower speeds = safer drivers'. As is so spectularly demonstrated by this tragedy, that entirely misses the point.
wiggy001 said:
Wasn't she charged with Death by Dangerous? In which case she should be punished for each death that she caused.
If she was merely charged for the wreckless driving then I would agree that the consequences of her actions should not be brought into it.
Wouldn't have thought there would have been a problem if it had been this....
Observer2 said:
Dangerous driving (legal definition) is that which "falls far short of the standard expected of the competent and careful driver". Putting aside the issue of the car being overloaded, it seems to me unlikely (46 years old mother, 25 years nursing vocation) that there was anything about this woman's driving (whether in general or on this occasion in particular) that fell far short of the standards actually found in a significant section (probably a majority) of the driving population. If that is true, it follows that a majority of the population are from time to time "driving dangerously" and, in the right (wrong) combination of circumstances (depending entirely on chance), may become responsible for a serious accident from which a DD or CDBDD charge will follow.
This is the fine line which the majority of drivers (those who do not really 'care' about driving and who do not see it as an activity worth striving to do better) unkowingly tread.
The lesson which the authorities should learn from this is that the path to improved road safety lies in improving driving standards. All they are actually interested in, apparently, is more speed enforcement, driven by the fools gold belief that 'slower speeds = safer drivers'. As is so spectularly demonstrated by this tragedy, that entirely misses the point.
Exactly.
Children not belted up + overloading car + not indicating + possible lack of attention seems to equal reduce the speed limit for everyone...
I have no idea how this has a relevance whatsoever. I cannot help thinking that this is just pandering to the speed kills lobby, and there are enough people brainwashed already to accept that this kneejerk reaction reducing the limit by 20 mph is a sympathetic and sensible thing...
Of course this has more spin factor than just spending money on thr driver education which may have averted the problem in the first place.
Observer2 said:
The lesson which the authorities should learn from this is that the path to improved road safety lies in improving driving standards. All they are actually interested in, apparently, is more speed enforcement, driven by the fools gold belief that 'slower speeds = safer drivers'. As is so spectularly demonstrated by this tragedy, that entirely misses the point.
The sad reality is that many drivers are probably untrainable, and so it's impossible to have a uniformly high standard of driving.
So the reaction is to have uniformly low speed limits. Most of us on here know enough about cars and driving to know that the chances are if the speed limit on that road had been reduced to 50 and was rigourously enforced such that drivers only did 50, then that accident would quite probably never have happened.
Driving and speed is always going to be about balancing risk, and there are people who genuinely believe that everyone should drive so slowly that nobody could possibly be hurt in an accident. It's an impossible argument for us to win.
Wasn't the crash caused by a badly judged overtake? Even at a strictly enforced 50 that still gives an approach speed with the opposite carriageway of 100, more than enough for carnage if control is lost. Slower speeds aren't the answer.
You can die in a car quite easily at 0 mph.
We need to accept that human error will always happen. Free reign safety totalitarianism would lead to lives not worth living, there's a risk in everything we do, and some risk and some stress are essential ingredients for progress and health as individuals, as society and as a species. The focus on road safety from officialdom wouldn't be there if there wasn't a hidden market bigger than income from corporation tax that requries motorists to be kept on the defensive and in their place. More people are killed each year by accidents in the home with hardly a murmur, but the government have proposed to stop collecting stats on that ffs.
You can die in a car quite easily at 0 mph.
We need to accept that human error will always happen. Free reign safety totalitarianism would lead to lives not worth living, there's a risk in everything we do, and some risk and some stress are essential ingredients for progress and health as individuals, as society and as a species. The focus on road safety from officialdom wouldn't be there if there wasn't a hidden market bigger than income from corporation tax that requries motorists to be kept on the defensive and in their place. More people are killed each year by accidents in the home with hardly a murmur, but the government have proposed to stop collecting stats on that ffs.
As I understand this from reading today's journalist accounts of the this story.
Woman was holding party for 13 year old son. She ist estranged from husband - but he was supposed to have been helping out with the party for their son/s 13th birthday. He did not turn up.. they were late for something or other.. she loads car up with all the boys und sets off.
Not good.. not wise..perhaps her husband could have called her (assume he has hands free or knows how to pull over und switch off engine to make call) .. just to know he was on way und where may have stopped this rush for some reason.
She then travels on the dual carriageway.. she has excited boys in the car.. und ist perhaps difficult to handle from both vehicle handling und personal concentration if boys are excited und laughing as they do..
She fails to look in rear view.. (perhaps rear view obscured even by the boys in the back ...) .. she pulls out in front of another driver .. impact causing car to hit the oncoming car und unbelted boys are strewn across carriageway.. und ist very tragic.
She ist injured.. seriously.. her son ist severely brain damaged.. und his friends are dead or also badly injured.
So .. two years.. does seem a little lenient.. Looking beyond the actual tragedy.. perhaps not. She has brain damaged son und a life sentence of causing this to her own son as well as a nurse causing death in this way.
Und as for the "she could not look me in the eye" as reported by one grieving parent..
{Perhaps she just could not.. she was too ashamed .. upset.. und had she dons so .. same parent would no doubt have angrily decided "she had no remorse.."
Widow of the person who hit my car.. she could not look my husband in the eye at the inquest for husband und enquiry into accident und the court case regarding the fight for damages from the insurance company .. it was not her fault they tried to lessen the pay-out by claiming he died before impact und was thus not insured ..
Our fight helped her get her dues as well
For a long time .. she kept sending me flowers though. She was terribly upset by the whole thing. She blamed herself for not stopping her husband .. she tell us later.
Driver who killed my cousin (drove the defective lorry which hit him)/ He could not look us in the eye either. We did not regard this as not showing remorse. Was written in the body language.. the shaky voice as he stated what happened in witness box.
I give this information from more painful past because woman ist normal ordinary woman who did something very silly .. but but for Grace of God.. could have been one of the other numpty mumpty types ...und who ist to say the grieving parents have not done something equally stupid.. ist only their good luck it did not happen to them. Not your normal dangerous driver und revenge can never heal.
I was mouthing to some children I was travelling behind to belt up not so long ago. My six year year old "navigator"
started to point to HIS seat belt..the little girls got the message.. (he has a cute smile - he will be right ladies' man when older! ;laugh
Parent had not ensured they were belted up in the back .....
Big difference in this kind of driver who cause death to the joy driving thug who just does not understand. Would do over und over .. for FUN!
Sadly ist the type the scams never trace.. und the police cannot find or they know who - but cannot find enough to collar.
Und ist perhaps the only thing I did agree with Strassen
about ... the ordinary person faced with this appalling trauma .. und his description of this was correct..
Tragic accident.. she was silly - very und tragically silly. Personally first thing I ask ist about transport und contingency plan. I insist they call us if a problem. We assist.. our kittens.. OUR RESPONSIBILITY!
We know things can go wrong transportwise as well .. so ist our normal way.
... und if we entrust to another parent.for trendy "sleepover" (rare - very rare .. know my kittens) ... we do call to check all ist OK... Our kittens are wilful little rascals.
>> Edited by WildCat on Tuesday 11th April 22:11
Woman was holding party for 13 year old son. She ist estranged from husband - but he was supposed to have been helping out with the party for their son/s 13th birthday. He did not turn up.. they were late for something or other.. she loads car up with all the boys und sets off.
Not good.. not wise..perhaps her husband could have called her (assume he has hands free or knows how to pull over und switch off engine to make call
) .. just to know he was on way und where may have stopped this rush for some reason. She then travels on the dual carriageway.. she has excited boys in the car.. und ist perhaps difficult to handle from both vehicle handling und personal concentration if boys are excited und laughing as they do..
She fails to look in rear view.. (perhaps rear view obscured even by the boys in the back ...) .. she pulls out in front of another driver .. impact causing car to hit the oncoming car und unbelted boys are strewn across carriageway.. und ist very tragic.
She ist injured.. seriously.. her son ist severely brain damaged.. und his friends are dead or also badly injured.
So .. two years.. does seem a little lenient.. Looking beyond the actual tragedy.. perhaps not. She has brain damaged son und a life sentence of causing this to her own son as well as a nurse causing death in this way.
Und as for the "she could not look me in the eye" as reported by one grieving parent..
{Perhaps she just could not.. she was too ashamed .. upset.. und had she dons so .. same parent would no doubt have angrily decided "she had no remorse.."
Widow of the person who hit my car.. she could not look my husband in the eye at the inquest for husband und enquiry into accident und the court case regarding the fight for damages from the insurance company .. it was not her fault they tried to lessen the pay-out by claiming he died before impact und was thus not insured ..
Our fight helped her get her dues as well
For a long time .. she kept sending me flowers though. She was terribly upset by the whole thing. She blamed herself for not stopping her husband .. she tell us later.
Driver who killed my cousin (drove the defective lorry which hit him)/ He could not look us in the eye either. We did not regard this as not showing remorse. Was written in the body language.. the shaky voice as he stated what happened in witness box.
I give this information from more painful past because woman ist normal ordinary woman who did something very silly .. but but for Grace of God.. could have been one of the other numpty mumpty types ...und who ist to say the grieving parents have not done something equally stupid.. ist only their good luck it did not happen to them. Not your normal dangerous driver und revenge can never heal.
I was mouthing to some children I was travelling behind to belt up not so long ago. My six year year old "navigator"
started to point to HIS seat belt..the little girls got the message.. (he has a cute smile - he will be right ladies' man when older! ;laugh Parent had not ensured they were belted up in the back ..... Big difference in this kind of driver who cause death to the joy driving thug who just does not understand. Would do over und over .. for FUN!
Sadly ist the type the scams never trace.. und the police cannot find or they know who - but cannot find enough to collar. Und ist perhaps the only thing I did agree with Strassen
about ... the ordinary person faced with this appalling trauma .. und his description of this was correct.. Tragic accident.. she was silly - very und tragically silly. Personally first thing I ask ist about transport und contingency plan. I insist they call us if a problem. We assist.. our kittens.. OUR RESPONSIBILITY!
We know things can go wrong transportwise as well .. so ist our normal way.
... und if we entrust to another parent.for trendy "sleepover" (rare - very rare .. know my kittens
) ... we do call to check all ist OK... Our kittens are wilful little rascals. >> Edited by WildCat on Tuesday 11th April 22:11
mxdi said:We used to travel in the "boot space" above the engine in a VW Beetle as kids. It might have been dangerous, but we loved it.... And being all toasty warm and feeling the vibration of the engine meant we were always asleep in minutes.
You just dont put kids in the boot do you? A mother and a nurse should have known better, and I bet she will never do it again.
Perhaps that's why we were allowed in there. Oh, and we didn't have seatbelts either!
Has the PC movement really made us all so easily shocked?
Best I don't mention when my dad took us for a drive in the back of a flatbed then... He was a complete bloody hero in our eyes for that
mxdi said:
You just dont put kids in the boot do you? A mother and a nurse should have known better, and I bet she will never do it again.
True.. und I wonder if ist a Picasso we really talk about.. Chassis of these could snap in half if rear ended at such speed like this. They were pulling faces from rear window just before this crash - as young boys in high spirits do... You do not have window in normal boot..
I have seen other mumpties driving around like this.. it does cause me to cringe und feel worried ..und sometimes if opportunity arise .. I have mentioned .. und got a right tantrum of abuse und told to mind my own
business.. I have even seen dogs in boot of such cars.. But even so.. this mother has also suffered her own being injured by her own stupid act. Am a Mama.. I can imagine how she must feel.
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