Change of speed limit
Discussion
I live in a small village approx 1 mile from the nearest village. Both villages were subject to 30mph limits but the intervening 1 mile stretch was NSL.
Due to some previous road works, the NSl stretch verge had started to subside. A temp 30mph limit was imposed and the entire stretch of road has been repaired/resurfaced. After the work gang disappeared, the former derestriction signs were removed and 30mph repeater signs installed along the former NSL stretch.
This strikes me as creeping sprawl of 30mph limits. The stretch in question is open countryside with a low accident record.
How can I check on the legality of this new limit?
Due to some previous road works, the NSl stretch verge had started to subside. A temp 30mph limit was imposed and the entire stretch of road has been repaired/resurfaced. After the work gang disappeared, the former derestriction signs were removed and 30mph repeater signs installed along the former NSL stretch.
This strikes me as creeping sprawl of 30mph limits. The stretch in question is open countryside with a low accident record.
How can I check on the legality of this new limit?
vonhosen will be along any moment to tell you there is a "good reason" why the new 30mph limit should stay.
Let me guess what he'll say.... the road is suseptible to crumbling and having a poor surface and therefore NSL is clearly dangerous. 30mph is fully justified because drivers need to be controlled on these dangerous roads, etc, etc, etc.
To answer your question, I believe the traffic department of your local council will have someone who's job it is to access speed limits.
Let me guess what he'll say.... the road is suseptible to crumbling and having a poor surface and therefore NSL is clearly dangerous. 30mph is fully justified because drivers need to be controlled on these dangerous roads, etc, etc, etc.
To answer your question, I believe the traffic department of your local council will have someone who's job it is to access speed limits.
As 7 db states- check with the LA for the area involved for the appropriate Traffic Order.
They may well have raised a temporary Order to cover the works but once completed then it is invalid.
Whilst the works in progress could well have applied for and been granted a permanent Order.
Both would have required to be published especially the later. Anmything in the local rag?
,,,or they could be messin...
dvd
They may well have raised a temporary Order to cover the works but once completed then it is invalid.
Whilst the works in progress could well have applied for and been granted a permanent Order.
Both would have required to be published especially the later. Anmything in the local rag?
,,,or they could be messin...
dvd
kenp said:
Problem is I don't read the local rag, it's just full of people going round the world for 'charity'.
Any particular department I should tackle reference granting of Order?
My council has a pretty good website where you can search for planning permissions etc, check your council website - the least it will have is a number or email for the road planning department.
kenp said:
Problem is I don't read the local rag, it's just full of people going round the world for 'charity'.
Any particular department I should tackle reference granting of Order?
Try contacting Julian by email
http://tinyurl.com/jzuts
dvd
kenp said:
Oxfordshire by any chance?
Dorset
There aren't any limits higher than 30 left in Poxgatsfordshire, so it can't be here.
Another 40 was lowered two months ago (already come down from a 60 two years ago), and there's already been one serious accident. Interesting that there were more crashes AFTER the limit was lowered to 40 than before. Of course, that can't be possible - speed kills, remember children.
>> Edited by MMC on Wednesday 12th April 17:47
Found the following on the council website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Work began this week to resurface a stretch of the busy A353 road at Osmington, near Weymouth.
Dorset County Council is carrying out carriageway improvements between the turn-off for Osmington Mills and the White Horse Garage, and the work should be completed by Easter.
Traffic will restricted to one lane only for the duration of the project, controlled by traffic lights/stop-go boards, and a width restriction of 2.9 metres is also in place. Buses and lorries can get through, but wider loads are advised to take an alternative route.
And when the work is completed, the temporary 30mph speed limit between Osmington and Preston - imposed due to the state of the road surface - will be lifted.
County council highways manager Richard Bastow said:
"There are parts of the road which have distorted over time, and need sorting out. Once that is done, the road can revert to the national speed limit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It specifically states that once the work is completed, the road will revert to NSL.
During the road work, temporary signs were put at the side of the road. Once the work was completed and all plant had disappeared, new permanent 30mph signs were erected and the delimitation signs removed.
Interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Work began this week to resurface a stretch of the busy A353 road at Osmington, near Weymouth.
Dorset County Council is carrying out carriageway improvements between the turn-off for Osmington Mills and the White Horse Garage, and the work should be completed by Easter.
Traffic will restricted to one lane only for the duration of the project, controlled by traffic lights/stop-go boards, and a width restriction of 2.9 metres is also in place. Buses and lorries can get through, but wider loads are advised to take an alternative route.
And when the work is completed, the temporary 30mph speed limit between Osmington and Preston - imposed due to the state of the road surface - will be lifted.
County council highways manager Richard Bastow said:
"There are parts of the road which have distorted over time, and need sorting out. Once that is done, the road can revert to the national speed limit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It specifically states that once the work is completed, the road will revert to NSL.
During the road work, temporary signs were put at the side of the road. Once the work was completed and all plant had disappeared, new permanent 30mph signs were erected and the delimitation signs removed.
Interesting
Don't know the road - is it built up and lit (both, not either/or)
The Council CANNOT impose a 30 limit without making a Traffic Regulation Order, and to do that they must follow the correct procedure.
No Order means speed limit is not legal. Anyo9ne caught speeding should have case in court to show no Order=no speed limt therefore no charge to answer.
Wrong procedure means Order (if made) can be challenged in court within 6 (em, or is it 12? no I'm sure it's 6) weeks of making (it must be challenged within 6 weeks on grounds that correct procedure not followed) - but anybody caught speeding meantime has no defence.
The Council CANNOT impose a 30 limit without making a Traffic Regulation Order, and to do that they must follow the correct procedure.
No Order means speed limit is not legal. Anyo9ne caught speeding should have case in court to show no Order=no speed limt therefore no charge to answer.
Wrong procedure means Order (if made) can be challenged in court within 6 (em, or is it 12? no I'm sure it's 6) weeks of making (it must be challenged within 6 weeks on grounds that correct procedure not followed) - but anybody caught speeding meantime has no defence.
Eventually managed to speak to someone at the council (the first eight!! were on leave).
Person I spoke to said he thought that road had reverted to NSL and he would ring me back.
Looks like the council have been caught out because subsequent phone call was either questionable or just plain lies. Apparently the engineers decided to keep the temp speed limit for the time being in order to 'monitor the repair work and the temp TO allows them to do that for 18 months'.
Told the man that I thought this unbelievable.
Firstly the engineering department would inspect the work prior to authorising payment to contractor. If they accept repair, then for all intents and purposes the road has been repaired and is once again fit for purpose.
Secondly what point is there in monitoring a 60mph road at 30mph?
Thirdly I understood that a temp TO was only valid for the duration of its initial purpose, ie once road was reinstated then temp TO would laps.
Any views?
Person I spoke to said he thought that road had reverted to NSL and he would ring me back.
Looks like the council have been caught out because subsequent phone call was either questionable or just plain lies. Apparently the engineers decided to keep the temp speed limit for the time being in order to 'monitor the repair work and the temp TO allows them to do that for 18 months'.
Told the man that I thought this unbelievable.
Firstly the engineering department would inspect the work prior to authorising payment to contractor. If they accept repair, then for all intents and purposes the road has been repaired and is once again fit for purpose.
Secondly what point is there in monitoring a 60mph road at 30mph?
Thirdly I understood that a temp TO was only valid for the duration of its initial purpose, ie once road was reinstated then temp TO would laps.
Any views?
Go to www.abd.org for details of how to combat unjustified speed limits...
Kenp
When they apply for a Temporary Traffic Order to cover the road works they generally stipulate loose dates to cater for a late start/finish etc and will sign up just before the works start. Once signing in and complies then enforcement can take place/
However where a TTO is concerned then once the works have been completed then there is an obligation under TSGD 2002 to remove all signs. The effect of this is to kill the enforcement aspect. This loophole was used to good advantage at Luton some 18 months ago where road works were completed and signs were left out. Speeding charge contested and driver won. I do not know what arguement was used works completed.
Obviously if the termination date of the TTO has expired then to make lawful LA should apply for an extention. IIRC they can only go for 3 over 18 months.
dvd
When they apply for a Temporary Traffic Order to cover the road works they generally stipulate loose dates to cater for a late start/finish etc and will sign up just before the works start. Once signing in and complies then enforcement can take place/
However where a TTO is concerned then once the works have been completed then there is an obligation under TSGD 2002 to remove all signs. The effect of this is to kill the enforcement aspect. This loophole was used to good advantage at Luton some 18 months ago where road works were completed and signs were left out. Speeding charge contested and driver won. I do not know what arguement was used works completed.
Obviously if the termination date of the TTO has expired then to make lawful LA should apply for an extention. IIRC they can only go for 3 over 18 months.
dvd
kenp said:
DvD
Thanks for the help. I have gone through TSRGD 2002, but can't find a specific obligation to remove signs after work completed.
Can they argue that 'monitoring' forms part of the repair work?
Go to the second part of TSGD following the sign descriptions. This section is the Directions. Go to Direction 36 headed Restriction on placing Temporary signs.
Amongst all the garble you will find that Diagram 670 (Speed) comes with the Schedules mentioned.
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Friday 14th April 14:50
The period of "18 months" they refer to is the MAXIMUM period for which a Temporary TRO can apply, without referal to Ministers, ie they CAN make a TTRO for up to 18 months, but not longer, if the works require it (say for example they closed a footway during building works - they close it for 6 months maximum, and then can extend it twice, by 6 months, and then no more unless the government approves a third extension). Even Temporary Orders have to be advertised (although the procedure is much shorter)
If, as per your phone call, they say that they want to "monitor" after the roadworks are finished, then, technically and properly, what they ought to have done is make an "Experimental" TRO (which again applies for 6 months but can be extended twice to 18 months max) - Experimental Orders, as far as I can recall (ie if the rules haven't changed) require the same consultation and advertisement as full permanent TROs.
In both cases there should be documented evidence that the Order has been properly advertised and made. Every Order MUST include a "Statement of Reasons" for making the Order - the Council cannot decide afterwards to change it or extend it for any reason whatsoever, not in that original Statement. If there is no such evidence then I would suggest (as I said in original post) the Order (Temporary, Experimental or Permanent) can be challenged through the courts and invalidated.
I think a council office visit is in order. Insist that they show you the Order and Statement of Reasons. Those are public documents and should be available for inspection. You can also ask them to show you the adverts etc throughout the process, although under the Freedom of Information Act they have 4 weeks to respond - and that will probably take you beyond the 6-week "challenge" period accepted by the courts.
If, as per your phone call, they say that they want to "monitor" after the roadworks are finished, then, technically and properly, what they ought to have done is make an "Experimental" TRO (which again applies for 6 months but can be extended twice to 18 months max) - Experimental Orders, as far as I can recall (ie if the rules haven't changed) require the same consultation and advertisement as full permanent TROs.
In both cases there should be documented evidence that the Order has been properly advertised and made. Every Order MUST include a "Statement of Reasons" for making the Order - the Council cannot decide afterwards to change it or extend it for any reason whatsoever, not in that original Statement. If there is no such evidence then I would suggest (as I said in original post) the Order (Temporary, Experimental or Permanent) can be challenged through the courts and invalidated.
I think a council office visit is in order. Insist that they show you the Order and Statement of Reasons. Those are public documents and should be available for inspection. You can also ask them to show you the adverts etc throughout the process, although under the Freedom of Information Act they have 4 weeks to respond - and that will probably take you beyond the 6-week "challenge" period accepted by the courts.
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