Road signs and non-endorsable FPN's
Discussion
Hi all.
Doing a little research for someone here and seem to have discovered that Police forces are likely ot have their own codes for the many and various opportunities to issue an FPN. It's difficult to find a list and it makes me wonder if each force has its own particular set of offences as well.
One list I did find, for Devon and Cornwall, seemed to have some very detailed and specific offences listed. Probably a good thing to prevent any potential abuse of more general descriptions but I have to suspect that most codes would not be remembered and therefoe nearly all offences will be covered by a handful of codes that people remember.
Anyway, to the point.
If someone was to contravene the rules relating to this sign, what would be the wording (and code if you like but I suspect the comparison would be difficult) describing the offence on the FPN?
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/sign049.htm
I note that these can also have exceptions for 'Loading'.
What would be the offence if the loading period was active but the vehicle in question may not have qualified to be at the location for the purpose of loading?
There seem to be so many signs with variations and subordinate instructions these days. It seems to me the only way to have half a chance of following them is by walking everywhere.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
>> Edited by LongQ on Thursday 13th April 17:31
Doing a little research for someone here and seem to have discovered that Police forces are likely ot have their own codes for the many and various opportunities to issue an FPN. It's difficult to find a list and it makes me wonder if each force has its own particular set of offences as well.
One list I did find, for Devon and Cornwall, seemed to have some very detailed and specific offences listed. Probably a good thing to prevent any potential abuse of more general descriptions but I have to suspect that most codes would not be remembered and therefoe nearly all offences will be covered by a handful of codes that people remember.
Anyway, to the point.
If someone was to contravene the rules relating to this sign, what would be the wording (and code if you like but I suspect the comparison would be difficult) describing the offence on the FPN?
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/sign049.htm
I note that these can also have exceptions for 'Loading'.
What would be the offence if the loading period was active but the vehicle in question may not have qualified to be at the location for the purpose of loading?
There seem to be so many signs with variations and subordinate instructions these days. It seems to me the only way to have half a chance of following them is by walking everywhere.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
>> Edited by LongQ on Thursday 13th April 17:31
Ignoring the strong temptation to go into aspects of the Air Navigation Orders etc for low flying......
Sign 619 (shown) is a prohibition on motor vehicles from using the said street and may be accompanied by a plate giving terms of access only and/or loading unloading conditions.
The prohibition will have been brought in by virtue of a Traffic Regulation Order which can only be enforced in signed correctly as shown. The sign is not one if disobeyed would result in a charge of failing to conform to a Traffic Sign (CO £60/3 points) but an an offence of failing to conform to a Traffic Order contrary to Section 5 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended by Sched 8 and 9 New Roads and Street Works Act, 1991 Max Fine £1000 no points.
One would have to read the Traffic Regulation Order to see just exactly what was or was not allowed and if the unloading was outside the terms then the offence would be committed,
Sorry cannot help with a list of FPN Codes (Non endorseable). Would have thought that they would be universal. Any differences being the subject of interpretation by the issuer.
dvd
Sign 619 (shown) is a prohibition on motor vehicles from using the said street and may be accompanied by a plate giving terms of access only and/or loading unloading conditions.
The prohibition will have been brought in by virtue of a Traffic Regulation Order which can only be enforced in signed correctly as shown. The sign is not one if disobeyed would result in a charge of failing to conform to a Traffic Sign (CO £60/3 points) but an an offence of failing to conform to a Traffic Order contrary to Section 5 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended by Sched 8 and 9 New Roads and Street Works Act, 1991 Max Fine £1000 no points.
One would have to read the Traffic Regulation Order to see just exactly what was or was not allowed and if the unloading was outside the terms then the offence would be committed,
Sorry cannot help with a list of FPN Codes (Non endorseable). Would have thought that they would be universal. Any differences being the subject of interpretation by the issuer.
dvd
DVD,
Thanks for the (as ever) very thorough reply.
In this case the sign is accomanied by and indication that loading is permitted at certain hours (4:30 PM to 10AM). A ticket was issued in the evening, therefore within the permitted hours. However the vehicle was not a goods vehilce and whether it could be argued that it was there for the purpose of loading would be an interesting but probably unproductive diversion into the definition of 'loading' which seems to be less than clearly defined.
As far as I can tell the codes use for the offences may well vary from force to force. One document I unearthed on the net (relating to Devon and Cornwall) had a very long list of possible offences and their codes but none on the codes looked similar in any way to the one I have seen on the FPN in question.
There is a part 2 to the question. This may be a bit more specific to local conditions and so more difficult to answer.
If someone was to contravene the rules relating to this sign, what would be the wording (and code if you like but I suspect the comparison would be difficult) describing the offence on the FPN?
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/sign078.htm
Could the same offence code and description be used for both signs?
Thanks for the (as ever) very thorough reply.
In this case the sign is accomanied by and indication that loading is permitted at certain hours (4:30 PM to 10AM). A ticket was issued in the evening, therefore within the permitted hours. However the vehicle was not a goods vehilce and whether it could be argued that it was there for the purpose of loading would be an interesting but probably unproductive diversion into the definition of 'loading' which seems to be less than clearly defined.
As far as I can tell the codes use for the offences may well vary from force to force. One document I unearthed on the net (relating to Devon and Cornwall) had a very long list of possible offences and their codes but none on the codes looked similar in any way to the one I have seen on the FPN in question.
There is a part 2 to the question. This may be a bit more specific to local conditions and so more difficult to answer.
If someone was to contravene the rules relating to this sign, what would be the wording (and code if you like but I suspect the comparison would be difficult) describing the offence on the FPN?
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/sign078.htm
Could the same offence code and description be used for both signs?
As stated the question of loading exemption will be fully stated in the Order itself but generally if the accompanying plate shows a goods vehicle, then it applies only to goods vehicles.
For some reason, having spent some time, I cannot come up with the Sign number for the tram from which additional information can be gleaned in the Regs and Directions.
As a round sign with blue background it is one that tells you what you must do and if accompanied by the Only plate underneath then it indicates a route for trams only.
So there is a restriction which to me means a Traffic Regulation Order to enforce.
A quick check indicates not probably a sign for failing to conform to the sign so back to failing to conform to the Traffic Order.
dvd
For some reason, having spent some time, I cannot come up with the Sign number for the tram from which additional information can be gleaned in the Regs and Directions.
As a round sign with blue background it is one that tells you what you must do and if accompanied by the Only plate underneath then it indicates a route for trams only.
So there is a restriction which to me means a Traffic Regulation Order to enforce.
A quick check indicates not probably a sign for failing to conform to the sign so back to failing to conform to the Traffic Order.
dvd
DVD, thanks again for the comprehensive reply.
The signs in question do not specify any vehicle types, just the times during which loading and unloading is permitted.
The NEFPN has a written description of the offence as "Contravene Trams Only Sign". Out of interest I phoned the force involved and having been connected to "someone who could probably help" quoted the offence code and asked if they could provide the official description to go with the offence. After some minutes and some obvious difficulty finding the information, the answer was "Contavening the Route for a Tram". So pretty much the same description. However there is a difference I would have thought between contravening a Traffic Order relating to a dedicated tram route (Presumably the Blue Sign above?) and the question of contravening a vehicle restiction which has loading and unloading conditions attached to it. (The Red sign with the Stunt rider.
).
In this particular case the signage in question appears to be that relating to motor vehicles being prohibited except for certain times for loading (the first sign posted. But the NEFPN has been issued with a code that suggests the offence relates to the second sign type, which in this case does not exist at the location.
To be quite frank the signage in that part of the city (and the other parts seems to be heading the same way) is a complete mess and very unclear unless you walk around and study it - even then it seems obscure. The local council seems hell bent on making sure the rest of the centre goes the same way - presumably the penalty revenue is urgently needed. For one thing even seeing the signs is difficult. Reading them and understanding their intention probably requires at least a degree in something.
Absent the blue "Trams Only" sign and a specific restriction for tram only use, has this NEFPN been issued incorrectly as it stands?
>> Edited by LongQ on Saturday 15th April 02:08
Dwight VanDriver said:
As stated the question of loading exemption will be fully stated in the Order itself but generally if the accompanying plate shows a goods vehicle, then it applies only to goods vehicles.
The signs in question do not specify any vehicle types, just the times during which loading and unloading is permitted.
Dwight VanDriver said:
For some reason, having spent some time, I cannot come up with the Sign number for the tram from which additional information can be gleaned in the Regs and Directions.
As a round sign with blue background it is one that tells you what you must do and if accompanied by the Only plate underneath then it indicates a route for trams only.
So there is a restriction which to me means a Traffic Regulation Order to enforce.
A quick check indicates not probably a sign for failing to conform to the sign so back to failing to conform to the Traffic Order.
dvd
The NEFPN has a written description of the offence as "Contravene Trams Only Sign". Out of interest I phoned the force involved and having been connected to "someone who could probably help" quoted the offence code and asked if they could provide the official description to go with the offence. After some minutes and some obvious difficulty finding the information, the answer was "Contavening the Route for a Tram". So pretty much the same description. However there is a difference I would have thought between contravening a Traffic Order relating to a dedicated tram route (Presumably the Blue Sign above?) and the question of contravening a vehicle restiction which has loading and unloading conditions attached to it. (The Red sign with the Stunt rider.
). In this particular case the signage in question appears to be that relating to motor vehicles being prohibited except for certain times for loading (the first sign posted. But the NEFPN has been issued with a code that suggests the offence relates to the second sign type, which in this case does not exist at the location.
To be quite frank the signage in that part of the city (and the other parts seems to be heading the same way) is a complete mess and very unclear unless you walk around and study it - even then it seems obscure. The local council seems hell bent on making sure the rest of the centre goes the same way - presumably the penalty revenue is urgently needed. For one thing even seeing the signs is difficult. Reading them and understanding their intention probably requires at least a degree in something.
Absent the blue "Trams Only" sign and a specific restriction for tram only use, has this NEFPN been issued incorrectly as it stands?
>> Edited by LongQ on Saturday 15th April 02:08
Dwight VanDriver said:
As a round sign with blue background it is one that tells you what you must do and if accompanied by the Only plate underneath then it indicates a route for trams only.
So there is a restriction which to me means a Traffic Regulation Order to enforce.
A quick check indicates not probably a sign for failing to conform to the sign so back to failing to conform to the Traffic Order.
dvd
This signage seems to create something of a logic problem. Blue sign is a positive instruction, ie the opposite to prohibition.
The aim appears to be for only trams to pass.
Trams, which run on rails, cannot respond to positive instructions (other than a green light).
Shouldn't the sign be one of prohibition ie banning all traffic and EXCEPTING trams?
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