Child assault?
Discussion
My wife works in a superstore where tonight a women lost it with a 4 year old in a trolley and slapped him across the face. Lots of crying etc and no doubt recorded on the cctv. My wife felt the woman over reacted and challenged her and her mother. She got a lot of lip and swearing from the mother and got no back up from her superiors who didn't want to know. The woman left the store leaving her shopping behind.
When I was a kid thick ears were the norm so I wouldn't be concerned if I saw this form of punishment. I don't recall a slap on the face.
Thing is, my wife's really upset about what she saw. Is it a police matter or should it be left as is? Perhaps a one off and the mother's a bit stressed.
Boosted.
When I was a kid thick ears were the norm so I wouldn't be concerned if I saw this form of punishment. I don't recall a slap on the face.
Thing is, my wife's really upset about what she saw. Is it a police matter or should it be left as is? Perhaps a one off and the mother's a bit stressed.
Boosted.
Mrs Boosted...
I do understand your upset at witnessing this punishment, but it is still legal in this country. My kids have been raised to know that there is a 'maximum sanction' that still holds whilst they live under my roof, they are both in their teens now and they are the best kids a parent could ask for. The smacking option has been used about three to four times on each of them and not for many years now. It was always done without rage and to hand or leg - an act of punishment rather than revenge (and it turns a knife in your guts when you have to resort to it...). A blow to the head from an adult to a child is a loss of control in the parent and can cause some pretty serious damage - the equivalent of you being slapped by a heavyweight boxer.
My advice to you is, if the woman in question is a 'regular', keep an eye out for her in future and try to see if she treats the child with disdain normally. Does she show any caring side toward the child? Does she have other (possibly younger) children? Is she a young parent herself? Working in a retail environment, there are often police officers about and a quiet word with one of them may well get things sorted. Do not, under any circumstance, involve yourself with Social Services - they are like stepping in dog-crap whilst wearing Reeboks; you will never be able to separate yourself fully from it..!
A one-off 'plot-loss' by a parent is difficult to witness these days, but you must be on very certain ground before you become involved with a child-abuse case. If the mother gets some interest from a BiB, she may well mend her ways, or they will take the matter further. Your supervisors will not support you as they will not want any negative publicity for the store. If you do resort to a chat with the BiB, make sure that you remain 'off-the-record', or you may be looking for another job...
It's a shitty situation, but I hope that this helps.
I do understand your upset at witnessing this punishment, but it is still legal in this country. My kids have been raised to know that there is a 'maximum sanction' that still holds whilst they live under my roof, they are both in their teens now and they are the best kids a parent could ask for. The smacking option has been used about three to four times on each of them and not for many years now. It was always done without rage and to hand or leg - an act of punishment rather than revenge (and it turns a knife in your guts when you have to resort to it...). A blow to the head from an adult to a child is a loss of control in the parent and can cause some pretty serious damage - the equivalent of you being slapped by a heavyweight boxer.
My advice to you is, if the woman in question is a 'regular', keep an eye out for her in future and try to see if she treats the child with disdain normally. Does she show any caring side toward the child? Does she have other (possibly younger) children? Is she a young parent herself? Working in a retail environment, there are often police officers about and a quiet word with one of them may well get things sorted. Do not, under any circumstance, involve yourself with Social Services - they are like stepping in dog-crap whilst wearing Reeboks; you will never be able to separate yourself fully from it..!
A one-off 'plot-loss' by a parent is difficult to witness these days, but you must be on very certain ground before you become involved with a child-abuse case. If the mother gets some interest from a BiB, she may well mend her ways, or they will take the matter further. Your supervisors will not support you as they will not want any negative publicity for the store. If you do resort to a chat with the BiB, make sure that you remain 'off-the-record', or you may be looking for another job...
It's a shitty situation, but I hope that this helps.
Thanks for that. I can see where you're comng from. I'm hoping for a bib take on this. Last thing I want is anything to do with social services but alas they are obliged to get involved if a complaint's made to bib. Next thing you know is you get case conferences involving everybody and some of them are child abusers!
boosted.
boosted.
Nothing illegal I'm afraid. A parent is allowed to reasonably punish their child, and one 'slap' to the face sounds fair enough. To put it into context, if i was called to such a thing i would have to report it, but not in the form of a crime report. I would complete a 'Come To Notice' report, ie, the child had come to the notice of Police. Social Services would be highly unlikely to become involved unless there was a previous history. A thorough beating in public, or causing actual injury would be a different matter.
I seem to recall reading about a man who was taken to court for spanking his daughter who was screaming in a dentist's surgery. I think he was cleared of "abuse" as the screams were a little "piercing" at the time.
As for shopping at that time - ist perhaps lifestyle - I do not know if she ist a single working mum und she was unable to leave a very tired child at home. When little kittens get over tired - they get "hyper" und thus "grisly grumpy". I think perhaps the Mama may also have been over tired - hence the behaviour which given the swearing when confronted - reveal she was embarrassed, upset und regretting her outburst in this way too.
I think perhaps Mrs Boosted should look out for her again - und try to chat to her in friendly fashion about way of world, constant tightrope act of trying to balance fair discipline und lee-way, the juggling act with the budget, work, leaisure, pleasure und "chores" und "young'uns today"- armed with copy of "Super Nanny" - which perhaps she could ask her boss to offer to the lady as goodwill gesture.
I am luckiest feline in that I have nice husband und partner with the Mad Doc - und we are able to shop at time which suit us und we able to work und pull together. Ist not perhaps the same for the single mama - und she sound like she could be given time of her shop there.
As for shopping at that time - ist perhaps lifestyle - I do not know if she ist a single working mum und she was unable to leave a very tired child at home. When little kittens get over tired - they get "hyper" und thus "grisly grumpy". I think perhaps the Mama may also have been over tired - hence the behaviour which given the swearing when confronted - reveal she was embarrassed, upset und regretting her outburst in this way too.
I think perhaps Mrs Boosted should look out for her again - und try to chat to her in friendly fashion about way of world, constant tightrope act of trying to balance fair discipline und lee-way, the juggling act with the budget, work, leaisure, pleasure und "chores" und "young'uns today"- armed with copy of "Super Nanny" - which perhaps she could ask her boss to offer to the lady as goodwill gesture.
I am luckiest feline in that I have nice husband und partner with the Mad Doc - und we are able to shop at time which suit us und we able to work und pull together. Ist not perhaps the same for the single mama - und she sound like she could be given time of her shop there.
WildCat said:
I seem to recall reading about a man who was taken to court for spanking his daughter who was screaming in a dentist's surgery. I think he was cleared of "abuse" as the screams were a little "piercing" at the time.
The real cases of abuse are done on the quiet behind closed doors. It is these that SSD and BiB should focus on, not someone who smacks their child in the street, whether we approve of it or not.
If the child is taken into what is laughingly referred to as the 'care' of the state, I can tell you that unless the child is being regularly seriously beaten up or sexually abused at home, they're almost certainly better off at home than 'in care'.
Thank you for the replies. Mrs Boosted may feel a bit better for them. The mother did the slap on another aisle and seemed completely unpeturbed by it. When Mrs Boosted mentioned seeing what she had done the mother thought Mrs Boosted had seen her knock something off the shelf. Hmmmm, maybe this time Mrs Boosted should let it pass.
A bit more information. The child was sitting in the shopping trolley and asked for something and was refused. It then struck out at mother who admonished the slap in retaliation.
Boosted.
>> Edited by Boosted LS1 on Thursday 25th May 09:06
A bit more information. The child was sitting in the shopping trolley and asked for something and was refused. It then struck out at mother who admonished the slap in retaliation.
Boosted.
>> Edited by Boosted LS1 on Thursday 25th May 09:06
Is Mrs Boosted a parent? I suspect not.
It is more damaging to a child not to chastise them, and if the kid has just gone into bezerk mode on account of being refused something, a slap is exactly what's necessary. It's called discipline and without it society collapses. Ideally the discipline is administered in a measured and non-reflex way.
SM
It is more damaging to a child not to chastise them, and if the kid has just gone into bezerk mode on account of being refused something, a slap is exactly what's necessary. It's called discipline and without it society collapses. Ideally the discipline is administered in a measured and non-reflex way.
SM
police will do nothing till it escelates
this means severe intervention on your part or damage to the child
i was beeten at 7 with a dog chain
police called photos taken and this guy admitted to hitting my mum CPS dropped chargeds against me so no convictions for hitting kids
taught me from the age of 7 police are useless
even after doing 18 months for stabbing my mum he is allowed back social services did nothing i was a ward of court since age of 5 so had a social worker since then
if they can do nothing and its their job dont beet yourself up
this means severe intervention on your part or damage to the child
i was beeten at 7 with a dog chain
police called photos taken and this guy admitted to hitting my mum CPS dropped chargeds against me so no convictions for hitting kids
taught me from the age of 7 police are useless
even after doing 18 months for stabbing my mum he is allowed back social services did nothing i was a ward of court since age of 5 so had a social worker since then
if they can do nothing and its their job dont beet yourself up
Boosted LS1 said:I think the fact that the child struck out is the crux of the matter. I consider myself a caring parent but I too may well have slapped a child in those circumstances, although usually across the hand. We don't know what happened before, perhaps the child is going through a hitting phase and talking has failed. Accepting a slap from a child is accepting a lack of respect/authority and is one of the things I personally wouldn't tolerate, as that small child will one day be a teenager who has learnt that hitting a parent is acceptable.
Thank you for the replies. Mrs Boosted may feel a bit better for them. The mother did the slap on another aisle and seemed completely unpeturbed by it. When Mrs Boosted mentioned seeing what she had done the mother thought Mrs Boosted had seen her knock something off the shelf. Hmmmm, maybe this time Mrs Boosted should let it pass.
A bit more information. The child was sitting in the shopping trolley and asked for something and was refused. It then struck out at mother who admonished the slap in retaliation.
Boosted.
>> Edited by Boosted LS1 on Thursday 25th May 09:06
Physical chastisement may be necessary for the long term good of the child. Who wants a child to grow up thinking hitting out is acceptable, and yes I do realise the huge irony of slapping a child to teach them that hitting is unacceptable. Sometimes though they just need a short sharp shock.
My youngest daughter went through a biting phase. We told her countless times to stop but she wouldn't. In the end I bit her back and it stopped instantly. She just didn't understand the pain she was causing other people until that moment.
It could also have been the end of a very tiring day and the parent over reacted and gave themselves a shock. Are there any parents out there who havent over-reacted at some point during their childs life?
If I look back over the years I can think of at least one example when I have chastised my children out of sheer exhasperation rather than necessity, but afterwards you sit back and feel terrible. IMO bringing up children is as much about learning to be a parent as it is about actually bringing up the child.
I remember my mum telling me how she smacked me round the back of the legs in a supermarket whilst I was wearing shorts and then she had to walk round with me with a glowing red hand print on my leg for all to see. Apparently that was the last time she ever smacked me.
Parenting is hard enough without the state getting involved and the "a smack is child abuse" lobby are making effective discipline of a child in a normal loving environment progressively more difficult.
BliarOut said:
Parenting is hard enough without the state getting involved and the "a smack is child abuse" lobby are making effective discipline of a child in a normal loving environment progressively more difficult.
True.
A slap to the face, though, seems a little OTT.
A slap to the hand, backside or leg will sting and get the point across but a badly-placed or heavy-handed slap to a child's face could cause serious damage.
supermono said:
It is more damaging to a child not to chastise them, and if the kid has just gone into bezerk mode on account of being refused something, a slap is exactly what's necessary. It's called discipline and without it society collapses. Ideally the discipline is administered in a measured and non-reflex way.
SM
Have to say I agree with that on the most part, I wish I saw MORE un-disciplined children being shown when they've overstepped the line - maybe we wouldn't have such a total lack of respect in society if this were the case.
Of course the only difficulty here is perception of the slap - I'm invisiging a "from the wrist" lift and quick slap, which will make a noise, shock the child, and help the child learn it's boundry's of behaviour.
If however the mother stepped back, swung her arm back and did a full roundhouse that was in jeapordy of dislocating the kids jaw... that's a slightly different matter!!!
Jeez, I know this is a difficult and emotive subject etc, but is one slap a good basis for cries of abuse? Getting officialdom involved could result in massive overreaction - too many high profile cases of intervention not being made will lead to a "jobsworth" attitude, where things just HAVE to be acted on. Being in "care" is not a place for any child, believe me, and a very poor second to having to endure a bit of tough love. My parents were long term foster parents for problem children throughout my childhood, so I've seen what "care" does to kids. Seeing an long term institutionalised 11 year old playing the system to their advantage is an eye opener I can tell you.
I have slapped my child. While I always feel bad about doing it, sometimes it is the only way of getting his attention and stopping dangerous or antisocial behaviour. Some people don't like it, and some think any form of punishment is abuse. Good luck to 'em, but I've been around since the sixties and I've seen where that sort of liberal thinking has got society, thanks. My boy doesn't always *listen*, and you can reason with him all you like when he's in that sort of mindset, you might as well be talking Martian. A smack WILL get his attention. If that offends someone's delicate sensibilities then that's really not my concern - I mind my own business.
I'm not surprised the store management didn't want to get involved. Even if there was any evidence to support the allegation of smacking, it's not a criminal offence. There is a huge difference between a single smack and repeated beating, and, as far as I know, parents still have some say in how their children should be disciplined. I'm not defending the particular woman in this particular incident - I wasn't there - but I will defend the right of any parent to decide how best to impose discipline in their family.
On the other hand, how should management react to their staff imposing their own moral judgement onto their customers? Sacking would be one option I should imagine. Be careful out there.
I have slapped my child. While I always feel bad about doing it, sometimes it is the only way of getting his attention and stopping dangerous or antisocial behaviour. Some people don't like it, and some think any form of punishment is abuse. Good luck to 'em, but I've been around since the sixties and I've seen where that sort of liberal thinking has got society, thanks. My boy doesn't always *listen*, and you can reason with him all you like when he's in that sort of mindset, you might as well be talking Martian. A smack WILL get his attention. If that offends someone's delicate sensibilities then that's really not my concern - I mind my own business.
I'm not surprised the store management didn't want to get involved. Even if there was any evidence to support the allegation of smacking, it's not a criminal offence. There is a huge difference between a single smack and repeated beating, and, as far as I know, parents still have some say in how their children should be disciplined. I'm not defending the particular woman in this particular incident - I wasn't there - but I will defend the right of any parent to decide how best to impose discipline in their family.
On the other hand, how should management react to their staff imposing their own moral judgement onto their customers? Sacking would be one option I should imagine. Be careful out there.
supermono said:
but a badly-placed or heavy-handed slap to a child's face could cause serious damage.
Come on let's not get carried away here. There's no suggestion of a beating, just a surprise slap round the chops to haul the little dear back into line.
SM
I'm not. I'm assuming it must have been fairly hefty for it to worry Mrs B so much at the time...
pdV6 said:Possibly and I do agree it could indeed be heavy handed, hence my original comment about personally slapping across the hand/bum etc. But a tap to the cheek with the fingers might be sufficient to get the childs attention.
Parenting is hard enough without the state getting involved and the "a smack is child abuse" lobby are making effective discipline of a child in a normal loving environment progressively more difficult.
True.
A slap to the face, though, seems a little OTT.
A slap to the hand, backside or leg will sting and get the point across but a badly-placed or heavy-handed slap to a child's face could cause serious damage.
How do we define the difference between a tap, a slap, a smack and hitting? In the context of this conversation it's very tricky but I'm willing to bet that the great majority of parents instinctively know where the line is drawn without being told.
The woman may have over-reacted or she may not but the act of bringing a hand to a childs face isn't abuse.
I'm playing devils advocate here. I think splatspeeds post above shows where the line is drawn. That simply isn't on IMO and I can't think of any circumstance where it would be considered acceptable parenting. In the supermarket incident I can see where it could be.
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