SORN legal Q - Car out of the country.
Discussion
Damn, blast and buggeration.
I had a letter asking for £40 last week as the car was unSORNed and untaxed. I wrote back pointing out that I had received a cheque when I cashed in my tax disc so I was pretty sure the DVLA had received the SORN notice at the same time. Thankfully I was polite and not sarcastic in any way as they have sent back a copy of the refund note which has an empty SORN section. (Did I say bollox?)
The form was filled in by our lodger who we had posted the disc to from Tunisia. Since then I can prove that the car was in Africa as we have documents showing our entry with the car into 15 countries between Tunisia and South Africa.
I'm going to explain this and enquire about the appeal procedure.
So, do I have a leg to stand on? Or is the law worded such that I'll get shafted simply for incorrectly filling in a form?
(And I realise that £40 is probably not worth my time fighting for, but it's the principal.)
I had a letter asking for £40 last week as the car was unSORNed and untaxed. I wrote back pointing out that I had received a cheque when I cashed in my tax disc so I was pretty sure the DVLA had received the SORN notice at the same time. Thankfully I was polite and not sarcastic in any way as they have sent back a copy of the refund note which has an empty SORN section. (Did I say bollox?)
The form was filled in by our lodger who we had posted the disc to from Tunisia. Since then I can prove that the car was in Africa as we have documents showing our entry with the car into 15 countries between Tunisia and South Africa.
I'm going to explain this and enquire about the appeal procedure.
So, do I have a leg to stand on? Or is the law worded such that I'll get shafted simply for incorrectly filling in a form?
(And I realise that £40 is probably not worth my time fighting for, but it's the principal.)
yeah he is ok
rare kind that is kill or cure
so there is no abguity
ie they either cure him or he dies quickly
and it worked
no remission or anything like this waiting for it to come back
although this did force him to re do his will taking me out and putting my daughters wedding in my place
Sean
rare kind that is kill or cure
so there is no abguity
ie they either cure him or he dies quickly
and it worked
no remission or anything like this waiting for it to come back
although this did force him to re do his will taking me out and putting my daughters wedding in my place
Sean
Write back and explain the following:
The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 Schedule 4 Part 1 explains to what SORN refers and they define the vehicle as a relevant vehicle. Defined under the Regs as:
relevant vehicle" means a vehicle which is either a relevant GB vehicle or a relevant NI vehicle;
"relevant GB vehicle" means a vehicle which is registered in the GB records AND KEPT IN GREAT BRITAIN , but does not include a vehicle in relation to which each of the following conditions is satisfied -
(i) neither a vehicle licence nor a nil licence was in force for the vehicle on 31st January 1998;
(ii) such a licence has not been taken out for the vehicle for a period starting after that date; and
(iii) the vehicle has not been used or kept on a public road on or after that date; and
(i, ii and iii outline to what SORN does not apply)
Now you will note that the words KEPT IN GREAT BRITAIN feature and puts your vehicle outside the scpoe of being a relevant vehicle. Your vehicle has been kept elsewhere since tax expired so IMHO Sorn is out of the window if you can give them some proof vehicle was elsewhere.
Argue your case with politeness and you may wellbe surprised.
dvd
The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 Schedule 4 Part 1 explains to what SORN refers and they define the vehicle as a relevant vehicle. Defined under the Regs as:
relevant vehicle" means a vehicle which is either a relevant GB vehicle or a relevant NI vehicle;
"relevant GB vehicle" means a vehicle which is registered in the GB records AND KEPT IN GREAT BRITAIN , but does not include a vehicle in relation to which each of the following conditions is satisfied -
(i) neither a vehicle licence nor a nil licence was in force for the vehicle on 31st January 1998;
(ii) such a licence has not been taken out for the vehicle for a period starting after that date; and
(iii) the vehicle has not been used or kept on a public road on or after that date; and
(i, ii and iii outline to what SORN does not apply)
Now you will note that the words KEPT IN GREAT BRITAIN feature and puts your vehicle outside the scpoe of being a relevant vehicle. Your vehicle has been kept elsewhere since tax expired so IMHO Sorn is out of the window if you can give them some proof vehicle was elsewhere.
Argue your case with politeness and you may wellbe surprised.
dvd
Righto, got a response last week. The pertinent bits (complete with dodgy grammar
) are:
The leaflet he sent (highlighted bits in italics, bold bits as per the original) said: There are special arrangements in place to cater for motorists who are abbroad and may find it dificult to SORN their vehicles. It is possible to make SORN up to 2 calender months in advance. Applications should be made on form V890 and accompanied by a letter of explanation and sent directly to DVLA Swansea. The vehicle must be in the UK 'off road' in order for a SORN declaration to be made.
Shame he didn't read the whole paragraph. Any how, here's my reply:
Thank you for your response of 30th May 2006 to my letter explaining the circumstances involved in our not licensing M814KTA.
As you rightly point out a SORN declaration is not appropriate under these circumstances and therefore would not have been accepted.
On the leaflet you sent me you highlighted a section of text explaining that when a motorist is out of the UK a letter should be sent with the SORN declaration. This makes no mention of what to do if the vehicle in question is also out of the country, in fact it clearly states in bold in the same paragraph that “The vehicle must be in the UK ‘off road’ for a SORN declaration to be made.”
Furthermore I understand that the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 Schedule 4 Part 1 explains to what relevant vehicle SORN refers and they define a relevant vehicle as “a vehicle which is registered in the GB records and kept in Great Britain.”
In which case I can see no reason that I should be liable for this penalty and would be grateful if you would amend your records to reflect this.
Yours sincerely
etc
) are: DVLA drone said:
I am enclosing a copy of DVLA Leaflet INF199 question 3 explains in that "The vehicle must be in the UK 'off road' in order for a SORN declaration to be made. As this vehicle was out of the UK a SORN declaration would not be accepted.
In this case I can find no reason to alter the original decision and you are consequently liable bla bla bla
In this case I can find no reason to alter the original decision and you are consequently liable bla bla bla
The leaflet he sent (highlighted bits in italics, bold bits as per the original) said: There are special arrangements in place to cater for motorists who are abbroad and may find it dificult to SORN their vehicles. It is possible to make SORN up to 2 calender months in advance. Applications should be made on form V890 and accompanied by a letter of explanation and sent directly to DVLA Swansea. The vehicle must be in the UK 'off road' in order for a SORN declaration to be made.
Shame he didn't read the whole paragraph. Any how, here's my reply: Without a hint of sarcarsm I said:
Thank you for your response of 30th May 2006 to my letter explaining the circumstances involved in our not licensing M814KTA.
As you rightly point out a SORN declaration is not appropriate under these circumstances and therefore would not have been accepted.
On the leaflet you sent me you highlighted a section of text explaining that when a motorist is out of the UK a letter should be sent with the SORN declaration. This makes no mention of what to do if the vehicle in question is also out of the country, in fact it clearly states in bold in the same paragraph that “The vehicle must be in the UK ‘off road’ for a SORN declaration to be made.”
Furthermore I understand that the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 Schedule 4 Part 1 explains to what relevant vehicle SORN refers and they define a relevant vehicle as “a vehicle which is registered in the GB records and kept in Great Britain.”
In which case I can see no reason that I should be liable for this penalty and would be grateful if you would amend your records to reflect this.
Yours sincerely
etc
Persist Bill for at law I am of the opinion that they cannot impose the surcharge.
The power to do so originates from:
The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2003
" Supplement payable on late renewal of vehicle licence
9A. - (1) Where paragraph (2) applies a supplement of the amount prescribed in paragraph (3) shall be payable.
(2) This paragraph applies where -
(a) a vehicle licence taken out for a vehicle expires,
(b) no vehicle licence was issued for the vehicle before the end of a period of one month beginning with the date of that expiry, and
(c) the registered keeper has failed to comply with requirements contained in Schedule 4.
(3) The supplement shall be £80, except when it is paid to the Secretary of State before the expiry of 28 days beginning with the date on which the registered keeper is notified that a supplement may or has become payable, when it shall be £40.
(4) The supplement shall be payable by the person in whose name the vehicle is registered under the 1994 Act at the date of the expiry of the licence by reason of whose late renewal the supplement becomes payable."
Your vehicle being out of the country is not a relevant vehicle as far as SORN is concerned so (c) above does not apply so all the conditions required to impose the surcharge are not present so cannot be enforced.
More ammunition if they still insist.
You are right to keep the letters factual and free from sarcasm.
They do say a wedge of rubber in the mouth helps with biting/nashing of the molars.
dvd
The power to do so originates from:
The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2003
" Supplement payable on late renewal of vehicle licence
9A. - (1) Where paragraph (2) applies a supplement of the amount prescribed in paragraph (3) shall be payable.
(2) This paragraph applies where -
(a) a vehicle licence taken out for a vehicle expires,
(b) no vehicle licence was issued for the vehicle before the end of a period of one month beginning with the date of that expiry, and
(c) the registered keeper has failed to comply with requirements contained in Schedule 4.
(3) The supplement shall be £80, except when it is paid to the Secretary of State before the expiry of 28 days beginning with the date on which the registered keeper is notified that a supplement may or has become payable, when it shall be £40.
(4) The supplement shall be payable by the person in whose name the vehicle is registered under the 1994 Act at the date of the expiry of the licence by reason of whose late renewal the supplement becomes payable."
Your vehicle being out of the country is not a relevant vehicle as far as SORN is concerned so (c) above does not apply so all the conditions required to impose the surcharge are not present so cannot be enforced.
More ammunition if they still insist.
You are right to keep the letters factual and free from sarcasm.
They do say a wedge of rubber in the mouth helps with biting/nashing of the molars.
dvd
mechsympathy said:
I can prove that the car was in Africa as we have documents showing our entry with the car into 15 countries between Tunisia and South Africa.
Am I being a bit dense here or was the vehicle on the back of a car transporter?
If you are driving a UK registered car around surely you should ensure that you meet all your obligations with respect to tax, insurance MOTs etc?
If it was the other way round, a foreign car in the UK, it must obey all its own domestic laws to be used here, and vice versa.
DVLA said:
C. Temporarily Imported Vehicles
There are International agreements which provide for the temporary use of a vehicle in a foreign country for a limited time, usually 6 months in a 12 month period. A visitor to the UK may use a vehicle displaying foreign plates, provided that all taxes (including vehicle excise duty) are paid in their country of origin.
Seems to me quite reasonable that you should pay your excise duty if you were driving the car.
ean218 said:
Am I being a bit dense here or was the vehicle on the back of a car transporter?
Nope. It was being driven.
If you are driving a UK registered car around surely you should ensure that you meet all your obligations with respect to tax, insurance MOTs etc?
Interesting point. Local tax and insurance and MOT equivalent, yes where applicable. A UK MOT (for instance) would have no meaning in these countries.
If it was the other way round, a foreign car in the UK, it must obey all its own domestic laws to be used here, and vice versa.
But would you expect an African car to? Certainly I would in the case of a European car, as there are (I imagnie) agreements in place.
C. Temporarily Imported Vehicles
There are International agreements which provide for the temporary use of a vehicle in a foreign country for a limited time, usually 6 months in a 12 month period. A visitor to the UK may use a vehicle displaying foreign plates, provided that all taxes (including vehicle excise duty) are paid in their country of origin.
Fine, that's the arrangement when importing a car to the UK. What about importing one into Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia, Botswana, Namibia and South Africa (
) All these places have their own regulations, some requiring new number plates, registration documents etc
Seems to me quite reasonable that you should pay your excise duty if you were driving the car.
It doesn't to me. Why should I pay for a UK Road Fund Licence if my car is not in the UK never mind on UK roads?
Nope. It was being driven.
If you are driving a UK registered car around surely you should ensure that you meet all your obligations with respect to tax, insurance MOTs etc?
Interesting point. Local tax and insurance and MOT equivalent, yes where applicable. A UK MOT (for instance) would have no meaning in these countries. If it was the other way round, a foreign car in the UK, it must obey all its own domestic laws to be used here, and vice versa.
But would you expect an African car to? Certainly I would in the case of a European car, as there are (I imagnie) agreements in place.
DVLA said:
C. Temporarily Imported Vehicles
There are International agreements which provide for the temporary use of a vehicle in a foreign country for a limited time, usually 6 months in a 12 month period. A visitor to the UK may use a vehicle displaying foreign plates, provided that all taxes (including vehicle excise duty) are paid in their country of origin.
Fine, that's the arrangement when importing a car to the UK. What about importing one into Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia, Botswana, Namibia and South Africa (
) All these places have their own regulations, some requiring new number plates, registration documents etc Seems to me quite reasonable that you should pay your excise duty if you were driving the car.
It doesn't to me. Why should I pay for a UK Road Fund Licence if my car is not in the UK never mind on UK roads?
Despite anything DVLA might tell you there is NO requirement to have a UK tax disc in other countries - and the vehicle can be SORNed as well as it is not being used on UK roads. Certainly outside EU countries the rules are even looser and you only need to heed the local rules (ie temporary number plates in Egypt, £2 road tax in Botswana). The only remaining theoretical problem is when/if the vehicle comes back to the UK. If it is trailered to home, no problem - if you need to drive it from say the docks then book an MOT fairly local - on second thoughts that could get very tricky with failures/insurance/getting tax disc. A trailer is by far the best bet.
Fine, that's the arrangement when importing a car to the UK. What about importing one into Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia, Botswana, Namibia and South Africa () All these places have their own regulations, some requiring new number plates, registration documents etc
And I am quite sure you checked all these local requirements before you left the UK. I wonder how you got to Tunisia? Possibly through a couple of European countries where even you concede it might be neccessary to obey the odd law or two.
Seems to me quite reasonable that you should pay your excise duty if you were driving the car.
It doesn't to me. Why should I pay for a UK Road Fund Licence if my car is not in the UK never mind on UK roads?
Because it is still a UK registered vehicle. You are not buying a UK Road Fund Licence, you are paying Vehicle Excise Duty. In your case you are essentially buying the right to swan around in foreign countries in a car bearing UK plates.
) All these places have their own regulations, some requiring new number plates, registration documents etc And I am quite sure you checked all these local requirements before you left the UK. I wonder how you got to Tunisia? Possibly through a couple of European countries where even you concede it might be neccessary to obey the odd law or two.
Seems to me quite reasonable that you should pay your excise duty if you were driving the car.
It doesn't to me. Why should I pay for a UK Road Fund Licence if my car is not in the UK never mind on UK roads?
Because it is still a UK registered vehicle. You are not buying a UK Road Fund Licence, you are paying Vehicle Excise Duty. In your case you are essentially buying the right to swan around in foreign countries in a car bearing UK plates.
ean218 said:
Because it is still a UK registered vehicle. You are not buying a UK Road Fund Licence, you are paying Vehicle Excise Duty. In your case you are essentially buying the right to swan around in foreign countries in a car bearing UK plates.
I have read your points, pondered for a while and come to the following conclusion. That is the biggest load of bollox I have read in ages.
It's road tax. It's to pay for the priviledge of using the UK roads. If you're not here, you don't pay it. Not only is that sensible, it's the law.
ean218 said:
And I am quite sure you checked all these local requirements before you left the UK. I wonder how you got to Tunisia? Possibly through a couple of European countries where even you concede it might be neccessary to obey the odd law or two.
Which is why (And if you'd read my original post properly you'd realise this
) I sent the tax disc back from Tunisia. ean218 said:
Because it is still a UK registered vehicle. You are not buying a UK Road Fund Licence, you are paying Vehicle Excise Duty. In your case you are essentially buying the right to swan around in foreign countries in a car bearing UK plates.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. BliarOut said:
That is the biggest load of bollox I have read in ages.
BliarOut said:
That is the biggest load of bollox I have read in ages.
mechsympathy said:
Unfortunately the DVLA agrees with ean218 here. They have finally found the relevant leaflet (V526) which says
DVLA said:
If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
for the duration of your stay abroad.
remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
for the duration of your stay abroad.
Balls
DVLA said:
If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
for the duration of your stay abroad.
remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
for the duration of your stay abroad.
Well that really is the biggest load of bollox I have read in ages. Can't you just SORN it from abroad, you'll never get caught.
........but but but Vera says at section 1
"1.—(1) A duty of excise ("vehicle excise duty" ) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle."
Offence is:
29.—(1) If a person uses, or keeps, on a public road a vehicle (not being an exempt vehicle) which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.
"public road"—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and
(b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the [1984 c. 54.] Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,
Been unable as yet to find (must be getting old) where it says using a vehicle on the roads in Tunisia or whereever oner has to pay UK Excise duty.
Anybody?
dvd
"1.—(1) A duty of excise ("vehicle excise duty" ) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle."
Offence is:
29.—(1) If a person uses, or keeps, on a public road a vehicle (not being an exempt vehicle) which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.
"public road"—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and
(b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the [1984 c. 54.] Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,
Been unable as yet to find (must be getting old) where it says using a vehicle on the roads in Tunisia or whereever oner has to pay UK Excise duty.
Anybody?
dvd
BliarOut said:
Well that really is the biggest load of bollox I have read in ages. Can't you just SORN it from abroad, you'll never get caught.
Unfortunately my lodger didn't fill in that part of the form Dwight Vandriver said:
........but but but Vera says at section 1
"1.—(1) A duty of excise ("vehicle excise duty" ) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle."
Offence is:
29.—(1) If a person uses, or keeps, on a public road a vehicle (not being an exempt vehicle) which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.
"public road"—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and
(b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the [1984 c. 54.] Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,
Been unable as yet to find (must be getting old) where it says using a vehicle on the roads in Tunisia or whereever oner has to pay UK Excise duty.
Anybody?
dvd
"1.—(1) A duty of excise ("vehicle excise duty" ) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle."
Offence is:
29.—(1) If a person uses, or keeps, on a public road a vehicle (not being an exempt vehicle) which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.
"public road"—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and
(b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the [1984 c. 54.] Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,
Been unable as yet to find (must be getting old) where it says using a vehicle on the roads in Tunisia or whereever oner has to pay UK Excise duty.
Anybody?
dvd
Cheers DVD, I have to admit that I have no idea where to start looking. I expect they'll ask for the back duty at some point, so I'll ask them to quote the statute (if that's the right word.)
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