Repeating signs for roadworks....legal question
Discussion
Just a quick question on what the minimum requirements for repeating speed limit signs for roadworks (mainly motorways). I have noticed that the people who run the M4 roadworks in Wiltshire are utterly useless with getting the signs up correctly. I already asked about not having the end sign - seems that this means its not necessarily legal at this point.....
But, what are the requirements for repeating signs? You get the warnings, then the actual enforcement sign. Then while in the roadworks section you get repeating signs - finally ending with the national speed limit sign. But, is there a minimum distance between the repeating signs?
The reason why I ask is that the section between J14 and J15 is supposed to be 50 with speed cameras. But, for almost 2 miles there was no repeating signs. The roadworks themselves are only about 3 miles.... like I said, the contractors are particularily crap at getting the signs up correctly.
Is the speed limit enforceable?
But, what are the requirements for repeating signs? You get the warnings, then the actual enforcement sign. Then while in the roadworks section you get repeating signs - finally ending with the national speed limit sign. But, is there a minimum distance between the repeating signs?
The reason why I ask is that the section between J14 and J15 is supposed to be 50 with speed cameras. But, for almost 2 miles there was no repeating signs. The roadworks themselves are only about 3 miles.... like I said, the contractors are particularily crap at getting the signs up correctly.
Is the speed limit enforceable?
TSGD only mentions repeaters on lit roads at intervals and does not state precisely.
Guidance from DoT is followed:
http/www.tinyurl.com/6bfq2
If way out of that then argument limit unenforceable.
dvd
Guidance from DoT is followed:
http/www.tinyurl.com/6bfq2
If way out of that then argument limit unenforceable.
dvd
Just found this in Chapter 8 Traffic Signs Manual, Traffic Safety Measures and Signs for Road Works and Temporary Situations.
Look at "Longitudinal through works" near the bottom.
Every 1/2 mile and mandatory signs if roadworks are for longer than 7 days (Note 2 not on scanned page)
Look at "Longitudinal through works" near the bottom.
Every 1/2 mile and mandatory signs if roadworks are for longer than 7 days (Note 2 not on scanned page)
Edited by greatgranny on Wednesday 12th July 11:38
Updated from that version above - the interim note updating Chpt 8:-
www.highways.gov.uk/aboutus/documents/crs_temp_speed_tsmanual.pdf
Temp repeaters should be every 350m.
www.highways.gov.uk/aboutus/documents/crs_temp_speed_tsmanual.pdf
Temp repeaters should be every 350m.
Bingo guys.... well done.
I thought that it was not enforceable to not have the correct repeating signs. Bloody moron contractors. I mean, if they want you to be going slow and safe for the men at the side of the road you would think they would get the flippin' signs right! The main reason they are there is to keep the workforce safe but they cant even do that right!
Ooooo it makes me sooo mad...
Still, not that I will go belting through them of course - that would be daft since there are some people who the 50MPH and the rest are 70+, the speed differential is too much and pretty dangerous. Bizzarely by not having the correct signage they are actually making it more dangerous!
Mind you I have to laugh - on the bits with the 50MPH signs there is no one there, but on the NSL bits they have blokes wandering up and down the hard shoulder! Obviously the temporary speed restrictions havent kept up with the work. Mind you, just how long does it take to lay some cables down the side of a motorway? Current running total is 1 1/2 years. I am pretty sure I could do the job in a couple of weeks using a decent cable laying machine.....
I thought that it was not enforceable to not have the correct repeating signs. Bloody moron contractors. I mean, if they want you to be going slow and safe for the men at the side of the road you would think they would get the flippin' signs right! The main reason they are there is to keep the workforce safe but they cant even do that right!
Ooooo it makes me sooo mad...
Still, not that I will go belting through them of course - that would be daft since there are some people who the 50MPH and the rest are 70+, the speed differential is too much and pretty dangerous. Bizzarely by not having the correct signage they are actually making it more dangerous!
Mind you I have to laugh - on the bits with the 50MPH signs there is no one there, but on the NSL bits they have blokes wandering up and down the hard shoulder! Obviously the temporary speed restrictions havent kept up with the work. Mind you, just how long does it take to lay some cables down the side of a motorway? Current running total is 1 1/2 years. I am pretty sure I could do the job in a couple of weeks using a decent cable laying machine.....
Bear in mind that "enforcability" is not the same as the DfT guidelines -- ie just because the repeaters are not in complaince with the DfT guidelines you don't *necessarily* have an out on enforecement. The law merely requires regular repeaters to make sure that motorists are well advised of the limit. I suspect the mags will test to that standard (and case law supports this, AIUI), not the rigorous standards which can be used for TSRGD infringements, for example.
Take photos and if possible a video of the route quickly before they move the signs to demonstrate if required.
I went back to the scene of Talivan day after I was caught and the roadworks and all signs had gone, hence no defence whatsoever. Not sure if there would have been anyway but it was worth a try.
I went back to the scene of Talivan day after I was caught and the roadworks and all signs had gone, hence no defence whatsoever. Not sure if there would have been anyway but it was worth a try.
7db said:
Bear in mind that "enforcability" is not the same as the DfT guidelines -- ie just because the repeaters are not in complaince with the DfT guidelines you don't *necessarily* have an out on enforecement. The law merely requires regular repeaters to make sure that motorists are well advised of the limit. I suspect the mags will test to that standard (and case law supports this, AIUI), not the rigorous standards which can be used for TSRGD infringements, for example.
Absolutely and I am certainly NOT going to stand out from the crowd on the M4....
But as a purely academic exercise, I was wondering what the minimum requirements were for signage. I mean, if the contractors fail to comply with the relevant rules for signage then it makes a prosecution for speeding harder. I would hope that anyone caught will at least fight and with enough doubt or complexity a case may end up being dropped or thrown out. Not suggesting that it is not enforceable at all - but at least it gives enough doubt to make it shakey.....
IIRC, there are three areas that contractors regularly fail to sign correctly:-
i) No or invalid TRO -- they just put up signs without changing the limit. No prosecution possible
ii) Faulty initial limit signs. Just one side of carriageway or in wrong place. Possibly not permitted format. Should be no prosecution possible.
iii) Insufficient repeaters. Not within the 350m as above. Prosecution still possible except where can be shown that there was insufficient guidance for the driver as a result of failing to meet the 350m guideline.
i) No or invalid TRO -- they just put up signs without changing the limit. No prosecution possible
ii) Faulty initial limit signs. Just one side of carriageway or in wrong place. Possibly not permitted format. Should be no prosecution possible.
iii) Insufficient repeaters. Not within the 350m as above. Prosecution still possible except where can be shown that there was insufficient guidance for the driver as a result of failing to meet the 350m guideline.
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