North Wales Police & "No Traveller" signs.

[deva link]

North Wales Police have launched a crackdown on businesses that display "No Traveller" signs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/nort

Discuss.

[vonhosen]

No choice.

Travellers are recognised as a distinct ethnic group under European law & as such any unfair treatment on the basis of them being part of that ethnic group is racism.

[Parrot of Doom]

Is it racist to complain about the mess they left in a field not far from here?

[7db]

Does this mean I need to take down the "No Irish, No dogs" sign?

[vonhosen]

Parrot of Doom said:

Is it racist to complain about the mess they left in a field not far from here?

You can complain about the unlawful actions of any individual, what you can't do is heap that blame on a whole ethnic group.

Just as it wouldn't be fair for you to blame another Saxo driver for your car getting damaged, if one ran into your car & failed to stop.

[r5gttgaz]

Can I complain about the job they did re surfacing my driveway, when I pay £18k for tarmac I expect a decent job.

[vonhosen]

r5gttgaz said:

Can I complain about the job they did re surfacing my driveway, when I pay £18k for tarmac I expect a decent job.

Individuals who you employed did the job, not an entire ethnic group.
If Anglo-Saxons had done it, would you not be blaming the actual workers not Anglo-Saxons as a whole ?

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th July 12:06

[Tafia]

Parrot of Doom said:

Is it racist to complain about the mess they left in a field not far from here?

I have pictures of a huge mess left in a lay by by them last year. Also they pushed a fence over to use the field as a toilet and farm cattle got onto the road, not far from the A55 expressway.

Farmer was told HE would be prosecuted if an accident was caused.

Edited by Tafia on Saturday 15th July 12:13

[Tafia]

vonhosen said:

Parrot of Doom said:

Is it racist to complain about the mess they left in a field not far from here?

You can complain about the unlawful actions of any individual, what you can't do is heap that blame on a whole ethnic group.

Just as it wouldn't be fair for you to blame another Saxo driver for your car getting damaged, if one ran into your car & failed to stop.

How very PC

[safespeed]

vonhosen said:

No choice.

Travellers are recognised as a distinct ethnic group under European law & as such any unfair treatment on the basis of them being part of that ethnic group is racism.

I'd be happy to be wrong, but I think there's another issue.

Modern 'travellers' comprise two major distinct groups:

- the first are an ethnic group (including Gypsies). They have been born into travelling if you like.

- the second are the people who have adopted travelling as a lifestyle choice (including 'new age travellers').

My guess is that it would be lawful to discriminate against a group on the basis of lifestyle choice.

[Flat in Fifth]

As far as I understand the situation:

Travellers who can demonstrate that they are part of an ethnic group eg in case O'Leary vs Allied Domecq can use Race Relations Act 1976 (RRA) plus the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 (RRAA) to deal with the discrimination.

Travellers who cannot prove they are part of an ethnic group cannot claim protection of RRA and RRAA but they may be able to use article 14 of the HR convention to deal with discrimination by public bodies.

The problem comes that a pub which refuses to serve 'travellers' commits indirect discrimination against a non ethnic traveller because their ban would be unlawful if enforced against a genuine ethnic traveller.

Thats how I understand it, but its a fair point that there are many who make a lifestyle choice who are about as 'ethnic' as I am.

Edited by Flat in Fifth on Saturday 15th July 12:40

[GreenV8S]

I thought that businesses had the right to decline trade without reason - certainly, various pubs and restaurants put up signs to that effect. If a pub landlord decided he would only deal with people who drive TVRs, what's to stop him?

[FortJefferson]

I can't see a problem with "no travellers". It's the same as "no bikers" or "no coach's" But "No Gipsy's", yes there may be a problem.

[vonhosen]

FortJefferson said:

I can't see a problem with "no travellers". It's the same as "no bikers" or "no coach's" But "No Gipsy's", yes there may be a problem.

Travellers is a name used to describe an ethnic group, bikers & coaches isn't

[Flat in Fifth]

Question: Is this the job of the police though considering the state of affairs in N Wales?

BBC article said:

"The force has told its officers to take note of signs in pubs, shops and other public premises that advertise an anti-traveller policy.
8< snip 8<
...they would help to tackle discrimintation "by identifying the presence of 'No Travellers' notices and passing the information to the CRE so that action can be taken".

I'm not sure to be honest.

[r5gttgaz]

What if you had a sign in the shop window saying "no sign taking police officers permitted".

[vonhosen]

GreenV8S said:

I thought that businesses had the right to decline trade without reason - certainly, various pubs and restaurants put up signs to that effect. If a pub landlord decided he would only deal with people who drive TVRs, what's to stop him?

They have but not where they refuse on the grounds of race, religion, colour, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, or disability.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th July 12:49

[FortJefferson]

vonhosen said:

FortJefferson said:

I can't see a problem with "no travellers". It's the same as "no bikers" or "no coach's" But "No Gipsy's", yes there may be a problem.

Travellers is a name used to describe an ethnic group, bikers & coaches isn't

So new age travellers are an ethnic group?

[r5gttgaz]

If the shop is your property do you not have a say in who enters it?

[Flat in Fifth]

vonhosen said:

FortJefferson said:

I can't see a problem with "no travellers". It's the same as "no bikers" or "no coach's" But "No Gipsy's", yes there may be a problem.

Travellers is a name used to describe an ethnic group, bikers & coaches isn't

But using it to describe a global ethnic group is incorrect usage in law as far as I'm concerned.

yes gypsies ethnic
Irish travellers ethnic
ditto Welsh Scottish Finnish Slovaks and so on
Surrey born drop outs living in old converted buses . definitely not ethnic.
What about 4th generation itinerant road menders / tarmac layers born in Liverpool?