parking ticket advice
Discussion
some time ago ,my company hired a van,we set sail in said van and parked up where no restictions applied and went to work.
another van at the same location got a parking ticket for parking on the pavement,fair enough,4 wheels on pavement.
the hire company got a letter from parking mafia saying they hadnt paid parking fine,rental co paid said ticket,passing cost to hirer.
thing is the van was parked with all 4 wheels on the road and no ticket was put on the screen,i have 2 other witnesses to this.
my company says as i was driving the van i am liable for £100 odd ticket.
what to do next?
another van at the same location got a parking ticket for parking on the pavement,fair enough,4 wheels on pavement.
the hire company got a letter from parking mafia saying they hadnt paid parking fine,rental co paid said ticket,passing cost to hirer.
thing is the van was parked with all 4 wheels on the road and no ticket was put on the screen,i have 2 other witnesses to this.
my company says as i was driving the van i am liable for £100 odd ticket.
what to do next?
The requirement was that for tickets to be lawful then they had to be either stuck on the vehicle or handed to the driver. As far as London Authorities are concerned the
law was changed in February 2005 which allowed London Authorities to enforce PCN offences where detected by camera and also where Attendant was prevented from issuing a ticket.
If the contravention had been out in the sticks there would have been grounds for an appeal.
dvd
law was changed in February 2005 which allowed London Authorities to enforce PCN offences where detected by camera and also where Attendant was prevented from issuing a ticket.
If the contravention had been out in the sticks there would have been grounds for an appeal.
dvd
Dwight Vandriver said:
As far as London Authorities are concerned the
law was changed in February 2005 which allowed London Authorities to enforce PCN offences where detected by camera and also where Attendant was prevented from issuing a ticket.
law was changed in February 2005 which allowed London Authorities to enforce PCN offences where detected by camera and also where Attendant was prevented from issuing a ticket.
If that is the case, what is there to stop a PA from making up offences by jotting down indexes and writing up the tickets at their leisure and then use the line above to justify them?
Dwight Vandriver said:
The requirement was that for tickets to be lawful then they had to be either stuck on the vehicle or handed to the driver. As far as London Authorities are concerned the
law was changed in February 2005 which allowed London Authorities to enforce PCN offences where detected by camera and also where Attendant was prevented from issuing a ticket.
If the contravention had been out in the sticks there would have been grounds for an appeal.
dvd
law was changed in February 2005 which allowed London Authorities to enforce PCN offences where detected by camera and also where Attendant was prevented from issuing a ticket.
If the contravention had been out in the sticks there would have been grounds for an appeal.
dvd
I disagree. I reckon that driveaways do not amount to prevention of service since there is no established legal requirement for the motorist to wait for the dude to finish writing the ticket. I think that prevention of service caters for threatening to kill the attendant, or your mate holding him down to give you time to drive off, etc.
This adjudicator's decision seems to agree - it dates from November 2005 so appears to be comfortably after the change in law that dvd mentions.
www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/YoniLaminavTFL.pdf
You should appeal yours in writing immediately as it is certainly invalid unless it was issued as a result of a camera AND your vehicle was incorrectly parked.
In my experience the attendant will lie and state that the ticket was correctly attached to your vehicle - stick to your guns, mention witnesses, all will be well.
ben
bond-007 said:
Nope - I don't think you can go to the adjudicator until you've appealed to the local authority and had your appeal rejected. Most LA appeals are successful so there's no need for the adjudicator.
You must write to the LA in the first instance, stating your case clearly and confidently. The address for appeals should be on the notice to owner which Ryder will have forwarded to you.
I think you'll end up getting Ryder refunded, they will then refund you. It's a bit of a hassle (I've done a company car one) but well worth it.
ben
Thanks for that reference Ben....duly filed.
The van on the pavement is committing the offence of parking with one or more wheels on the pavement or a grass verge. This has been banned throughout Greater London for many years as it creates a hazard to the blind and partially sighted, the disabled and children in pushchairs, and damages the pavement and verges.
Crossovers (where the pavement dips to road level at drive entrances) are just as much part of the footway as the pavement itself - even if leading to your own house! There are, however, streets where parking is permitted and they are shown by pictorial signs:
permitting parking with 2 wheels on the pavement
permitting parking with 4 wheels on the pavement
Conrod states no waiting restriction on the road etc. So was your vehicle partly on a footway? Just what exactly was the offence on the ticket?
As I understand it Council involved as penalty not paid in 14 days and would send Notice to Owner (Hire Company) to pay. In the appeal line they should have made a formal representation to Council appealing but they did not and paid. The next step is that Council would have sent a Notice of Rejection of Representation which leads on to a formal appeal to the Adjudicator.
If C you have evidence that your vehicle was not committing any offence then I would consider a two pronged attack, one to the Council issuing the in valid ticket and at the same time and enquiry of the PA to ask how to right the wrong. If I get time later today may try to find out the correct avenue for an incident like this.
The only other thing which may be possible would be to take a civil action against the Hire Company for th return of ther 100 notes and they in turn against the Council?
A trip to CAB may confirm.
dvd
The van on the pavement is committing the offence of parking with one or more wheels on the pavement or a grass verge. This has been banned throughout Greater London for many years as it creates a hazard to the blind and partially sighted, the disabled and children in pushchairs, and damages the pavement and verges.
Crossovers (where the pavement dips to road level at drive entrances) are just as much part of the footway as the pavement itself - even if leading to your own house! There are, however, streets where parking is permitted and they are shown by pictorial signs:
permitting parking with 2 wheels on the pavement
permitting parking with 4 wheels on the pavement
Conrod states no waiting restriction on the road etc. So was your vehicle partly on a footway? Just what exactly was the offence on the ticket?
As I understand it Council involved as penalty not paid in 14 days and would send Notice to Owner (Hire Company) to pay. In the appeal line they should have made a formal representation to Council appealing but they did not and paid. The next step is that Council would have sent a Notice of Rejection of Representation which leads on to a formal appeal to the Adjudicator.
If C you have evidence that your vehicle was not committing any offence then I would consider a two pronged attack, one to the Council issuing the in valid ticket and at the same time and enquiry of the PA to ask how to right the wrong. If I get time later today may try to find out the correct avenue for an incident like this.
The only other thing which may be possible would be to take a civil action against the Hire Company for th return of ther 100 notes and they in turn against the Council?
A trip to CAB may confirm.
dvd
Good advice but in my experience getting an 'already paid' ticket refunded is not nearly so complicated.
Driving a company car, I had a 'friendly' discussion with an attendant right outside my house; he started writing a ticket but I drove off. The next thing I knew was months later when I received a £100 salary deduction. Like the OP's hire company, my company automatically pay any fines without question and without contacting the driver first.
I resolved it simply by writing to Westminster's appeals address, stating the truth that the attendant didn't even come close to serving the PCN. Ticket was cancelled with a little bit of hassle ('why did you pay it if it was invalid, etc'). Unfortunately I can't actually remember now whether I succeeded in getting them to refund me directly. I'm 99% sure they insisted on refunding my company which then refunded me.
All the OP needs to do is write to the relevant LA appeals address in the first instance.
ben
Driving a company car, I had a 'friendly' discussion with an attendant right outside my house; he started writing a ticket but I drove off. The next thing I knew was months later when I received a £100 salary deduction. Like the OP's hire company, my company automatically pay any fines without question and without contacting the driver first.
I resolved it simply by writing to Westminster's appeals address, stating the truth that the attendant didn't even come close to serving the PCN. Ticket was cancelled with a little bit of hassle ('why did you pay it if it was invalid, etc'). Unfortunately I can't actually remember now whether I succeeded in getting them to refund me directly. I'm 99% sure they insisted on refunding my company which then refunded me.
All the OP needs to do is write to the relevant LA appeals address in the first instance.
ben
bond-007 said:
Would a hire company/employer be negligent if they pay up without reference to the driver/hirer?
Very interesting question.
Although it seems wrong for them to pay these often bogus demands for money without question, I would guess that they aren't being negligent, for two reasons.
Firstly you will have signed a contract stating than any fines relating to the vehicle will automatically be paid by them and billed to you - no ifs and buts. Secondly, the hire company/employer does not compromise your ability to appeal by paying these fines on your behalf.
ben
Who hired the van?
Was it your company, or you?
AFAIK when you hire a car you agree to things like this in the T&C. So if the hire company has passed the cost on to your employer, and it was your employer that hired the vehicle, then I'd say you can tell your employer that you'll only accept the £100 deduction in your wage when they have proven beyond doubt that you were guilty of the offence.
If you hired the van, not your company, then thats something for you to argue with the hire company about.
Was it your company, or you?
AFAIK when you hire a car you agree to things like this in the T&C. So if the hire company has passed the cost on to your employer, and it was your employer that hired the vehicle, then I'd say you can tell your employer that you'll only accept the £100 deduction in your wage when they have proven beyond doubt that you were guilty of the offence.
If you hired the van, not your company, then thats something for you to argue with the hire company about.
bond-007 said:
blackvanman said:
Secondly, the hire company/employer does not compromise your ability to appeal by paying these fines on your behalf.
ben
ben
Would paying not be an admission of guilt?
I don't think so. There are various situations where you are obliged to pay up front regardless of whether or not any contravention has occurred - e.g. declamping/return of removed vehicle. Payment in those cases does not constitute admission of guilt so I guess there's no general principle that PCN paid = guilt accepted.
Been through RTA 1991 and RT (Parking Adjudicators)(London) Regs 1991 but could not find the avenue for an appeal when the penalty has been paid and a later wish to contest. Whilst there is set procedures to contest from the very start I couldn't find anything to come in after the event has been accepted through payment. As stated it wouldf appear one avenue may possibly be through civil action to right the wrong (if it was a wrong) but again I would write to the Adjudicator to see what his advice would be.
dvd
dvd
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff