caught doing 84 on the M74
Discussion
Hi everyone,
I received a NIP saying they caught me doing 84 on the motorway and offered me 60 pounds and 3 points. When I replied saying not guilty, the procurator Fiscal came back with an offer of 60 pounds fixed penelty with no points. I obviously jumped at this offer and the cheque went off in the post.
Now they are officially saying that the offer they made was legally imcompetent, and as such they want to take me to court after all.
Does anyone know if they are allowed to do this???
Thanks
I received a NIP saying they caught me doing 84 on the motorway and offered me 60 pounds and 3 points. When I replied saying not guilty, the procurator Fiscal came back with an offer of 60 pounds fixed penelty with no points. I obviously jumped at this offer and the cheque went off in the post.
Now they are officially saying that the offer they made was legally imcompetent, and as such they want to take me to court after all.
Does anyone know if they are allowed to do this???
Thanks
I've never heard of them taking off the points and just offering a fine like that! Must be a mistake at their end. Usually mistakes work in your favour. As long as you have their reply that they sent offering just the fine then you should have no problem in court. Knowing their mistake I doubt it ever would go to court... you might find it gets dropped if you agree for court.
So are you not guilty? or just trying it on ;-)
So are you not guilty? or just trying it on ;-)
How strange, never heard of that before. At least they admit they are incompetent, how true.
Almost sounds like someone has been caught with their hands in the till so to speak, sacked, and their dirty deeds are now being put straight before being publicly discovered and the whole thing snow balls. Of course I may just be paranoid when SCP's are talked about
.
Who did you make the cheque payable to for the 60 quid? Did I hear alot of NIP's weren't completed or paid last year... or perhaps they were after all, by the back door with no points issued. I wouldn't mind betting there's alot of opportunities for SCP employees with lesser morals, what with all those £60's continuously rolling in.
Almost sounds like someone has been caught with their hands in the till so to speak, sacked, and their dirty deeds are now being put straight before being publicly discovered and the whole thing snow balls. Of course I may just be paranoid when SCP's are talked about
. Who did you make the cheque payable to for the 60 quid? Did I hear alot of NIP's weren't completed or paid last year... or perhaps they were after all, by the back door with no points issued. I wouldn't mind betting there's alot of opportunities for SCP employees with lesser morals, what with all those £60's continuously rolling in.
thedoctor said:
Hi everyone,
I received a NIP saying they caught me doing 84 on the motorway and offered me 60 pounds and 3 points. When I replied saying not guilty, the procurator Fiscal came back with an offer of 60 pounds fixed penelty with no points. I obviously jumped at this offer and the cheque went off in the post.
Now they are officially saying that the offer they made was legally imcompetent, and as such they want to take me to court after all.
Does anyone know if they are allowed to do this???
Thanks
I received a NIP saying they caught me doing 84 on the motorway and offered me 60 pounds and 3 points. When I replied saying not guilty, the procurator Fiscal came back with an offer of 60 pounds fixed penelty with no points. I obviously jumped at this offer and the cheque went off in the post.
Now they are officially saying that the offer they made was legally imcompetent, and as such they want to take me to court after all.
Does anyone know if they are allowed to do this???
Thanks
Hello doc,
I'm afraid the operations of several of the Fiscal's offices are becoming more bizzare with the passage of time.
The problem here is that Procurators Fiscal consider themselves to have absolute autonomy over the law and who they decide to prosecute; they have actually told me this in a letter!!
The reality of course is that they must adhere to the statutes the same as the rest of us, but they can waste so much of your time and involve you in considerable expense by behaving in the most grossly incompetent manner.
Points for a speeding offence are mandatory, but only on conviction.
In other words if you were convicted in court the Sheriff would have to endorse your licence.
But the Fiscal has made an offer to you which is NOT a prosecution, you have unconditionally accepted it and sent them payment on THEIR terms.
I would think that they would be on a sticky wicket trying to go back to court with this.
My instincts would be to call their bluff and tell them if they cite you to appear you will go back to your original plea of not guilty as you only accepted the FP as a matter of convenience, it was NOT an admission of guilt.
I think you stand a good chance of them backing down, or even getting a dismissal at the first calling.
Good luck!
Edited by jith on Tuesday 15th August 20:32
BliarOut said:
IMPORTANT, did they cash the cheque? If so then I think legally they entered into a contract with you. As has been said I would think it could be very interesting to stick to your guns with this.
I am not sure if the relevant contract law is technically applicable is such cases - I am guessing at a mags court though it would be the yardstick and would certainly work in the OPs favour.
To form a contract the offer and consideration has already taken place on this occasion and thus the contract is binding. If my nineteenth century case law memory serves me well, a contract is deemed considered and accepted when it has been posted.
In such a contractual situation once offered and accepted both parties have an equal right to go back on it... that is... no right at all!
I wonder what would happen if they had sent you a fixed penalty notice, you paid it and admitted guily and then at an unlimited time late chose to change your mind, have your money back and plead not guilty!
That would of course never happen, so I am unaware how the authority thinks it has the right to go back on what they themselves have agreed.
deeps said:
SCP employees with lesser morals
Tautology!
To the OP, can't really advise, but it's utterly bizarre and it's not often we get a "got caught" story on here that doesn't have entirely predictable contents. Good luck anyway. Once again an example of how we get draconian penalties for innocent, inconsequential mistakes while "they" make mistakes that cause misery and never have to answer for it.
justinp1 said:
BliarOut said:
IMPORTANT, did they cash the cheque? If so then I think legally they entered into a contract with you. As has been said I would think it could be very interesting to stick to your guns with this.
I am not sure if the relevant contract law is technically applicable is such cases
The law states that the offence of exceeding the statutory speed limit carries a penalty of three to six points. Thus a lawful prosecution can't be made without the associated penalty.
But, surely, the offer of £60 and no points was to avoid prosecution and was an offer of fixed penalty. If you have paid, or offered to pay by sending a clearable cheque, you have accepted the offer and the transaction is complete.If they are themselves guilty of an error or omission in offering that deal, then they have recourse only within their own organisation as your part of the offer is complete.
Personally I would ignore their further correspondence and see what they do next.If they write again, then write back stating that '....... the business was complete by the cheque number xxxxx sent on ..... in the sum of £60 as requested and agreed by their letter of xxxxxxx (copy enclosed)'.
In other words, 'fxxxx off'.
Personally I would ignore their further correspondence and see what they do next.If they write again, then write back stating that '....... the business was complete by the cheque number xxxxx sent on ..... in the sum of £60 as requested and agreed by their letter of xxxxxxx (copy enclosed)'.
In other words, 'fxxxx off'.
Andrew D said:
justinp1 said:
BliarOut said:
IMPORTANT, did they cash the cheque? If so then I think legally they entered into a contract with you. As has been said I would think it could be very interesting to stick to your guns with this.
I am not sure if the relevant contract law is technically applicable is such cases
The law states that the offence of exceeding the statutory speed limit carries a penalty of three to six points. Thus a lawful prosecution can't be made without the associated penalty.
As I understand it the FPN is an 'offer'. The offer was made and if the cheque was cashed then the offer was accepted. Surely it would fall foul of double jeapordy if they then withdrew the offer?
Gonna make interesting reading when DVD/VH turn up
Hollywood Wheels said:
Outrageous state of affairs. I can't comment too much for obvious reasons, but good luck, and hopefully it will just cost you the 60 quid. Keep us posted!
Is it too much to hope that their cock-up is of such magnitude that ultimately it doesn't even cost you the £60?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Right -
Sections 75 -77 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 deals with the issue of a Conditional Offer in Scotland.
Nowhere does it seem to give authority for PF/SCP to make the offer of fine only for an offence that its endorseable without endorsement. In fact the law requires in addition to the 60 pounds to be paid that this is accompanied by a driving Licence so that it can be checked and if OK an endorsement added.
The only time when one can get away without endorsement is under:
Section 44 RTOA 1988 which allows the Bench (Court)not to order a Driving Licence to be endorsed if for special reasons:
SR = is one which is special to the facts of the case, that is special to the facts which constitute the offence and a circumstance particular to the offender . This is different to the 'hardship' plea that can be made where totting is involved.
Bearing in mind that the PF/SCP are not obliged to send out a Conditional Offer but under the Law MAY do so it would appear that they still have the power, irrespective of the boob, to carry on and go down the Court procedeedings line.
The circumstances are such IMHO insufficient to be relied upon to get an acquittal at Court but possibly could cause some embarrassment which may reflected in the sentence no higher than the £6o/3 points than the Co but with added Court costs.
dvd
Sections 75 -77 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 deals with the issue of a Conditional Offer in Scotland.
Nowhere does it seem to give authority for PF/SCP to make the offer of fine only for an offence that its endorseable without endorsement. In fact the law requires in addition to the 60 pounds to be paid that this is accompanied by a driving Licence so that it can be checked and if OK an endorsement added.
The only time when one can get away without endorsement is under:
Section 44 RTOA 1988 which allows the Bench (Court)not to order a Driving Licence to be endorsed if for special reasons:
SR = is one which is special to the facts of the case, that is special to the facts which constitute the offence and a circumstance particular to the offender . This is different to the 'hardship' plea that can be made where totting is involved.
Bearing in mind that the PF/SCP are not obliged to send out a Conditional Offer but under the Law MAY do so it would appear that they still have the power, irrespective of the boob, to carry on and go down the Court procedeedings line.
The circumstances are such IMHO insufficient to be relied upon to get an acquittal at Court but possibly could cause some embarrassment which may reflected in the sentence no higher than the £6o/3 points than the Co but with added Court costs.
dvd
BliarOut said:
As I understand it the FPN is an 'offer'. The offer was made and if the cheque was cashed then the offer was accepted. Surely it would fall foul of double jeapordy if they then withdrew the offer?
Gonna make interesting reading when DVD/VH turn up
IIRC the level of penalty carried by the fixed penalty notice is specified by the Road Traffic Offenders Act (or any superseding legislation). As such the Procurator Fiscal wouldn't have the authority to vary the penalty, as it's either the fixed level or you goto court and the Crown decides the penalty. Thus any contract with them wouldn't be valid, as it would be akin to making a contract with some random tramp by the roadside, as he doesn't have authority to vary the penalty either! Gonna make interesting reading when DVD/VH turn up
EDIT:- Took a while to research my post, by which time DVD had answered. I'm not copying honest sir!
Edited by Andrew D on Wednesday 16th August 16:47
Dwight Vandriver said:
Bearing in mind that the PF/SCP are not obliged to send out a Conditional Offer but under the Law MAY do so it would appear that they still have the power, irrespective of the boob, to carry on and go down the Court procedeedings line.
But also consider the possibility that the PF made a contract.
Offer - acceptance - consideration...
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