Red Lights and Emergency Vehicles
Discussion
So, finally happened to me.
After all the threads I have seen (and some I have contributed to)concerning fines for moving through RED lights to allow Emergency Service vehicles to pass, this morning I was the guy at the front of the queue (heading towards London at Battersey) when an unmarked blue Ford, civilian-dressed driver using blue lights / siren roared into view. He was certainly in a hurry, but given the central island he had no option but to stay on this side of the road through the junction.
Should I move? I could get out of the way by crossing the white line (disobeying the RED light) but not crossing over the junction (there is a cycle area and pedestrian crossing space) and there was no way that he was going to get through unless I and a van both moved over.
I am actually ashamed to say that I thought about it. Until now I never would have given a moment’s thought, if safe, to move over the line out of the way.
Still, after hesitating I did clear his path, moving as far left as I could to allow the van to join me and through he went, acknowledging us both.
On the way back this afternoon I see video cameras monitoring the junction. So. Now I have to wait two weeks to see whether I get fined or common sense will prevail.
After all the threads I have seen (and some I have contributed to)concerning fines for moving through RED lights to allow Emergency Service vehicles to pass, this morning I was the guy at the front of the queue (heading towards London at Battersey) when an unmarked blue Ford, civilian-dressed driver using blue lights / siren roared into view. He was certainly in a hurry, but given the central island he had no option but to stay on this side of the road through the junction.
Should I move? I could get out of the way by crossing the white line (disobeying the RED light) but not crossing over the junction (there is a cycle area and pedestrian crossing space) and there was no way that he was going to get through unless I and a van both moved over.
I am actually ashamed to say that I thought about it. Until now I never would have given a moment’s thought, if safe, to move over the line out of the way.
Still, after hesitating I did clear his path, moving as far left as I could to allow the van to join me and through he went, acknowledging us both.
On the way back this afternoon I see video cameras monitoring the junction. So. Now I have to wait two weeks to see whether I get fined or common sense will prevail.
You did the right thing chap - hopefully Von will be along shortly to say how you broke the law and should be fined.
Technically he'd be right - as you weren't ordered to go through the lights, but then you'd be obstructing an officer (presumably he was!!! - be interesting if it was a dodgy set of lights!), which is obviously worse than what you did.
Anyway, I still (just about) have enough faith in the system to think you'll be ok. Would you have done it had there been a light-camera though?
Technically he'd be right - as you weren't ordered to go through the lights, but then you'd be obstructing an officer (presumably he was!!! - be interesting if it was a dodgy set of lights!), which is obviously worse than what you did.
Anyway, I still (just about) have enough faith in the system to think you'll be ok. Would you have done it had there been a light-camera though?
Hopefully you wont get had!.
My mate pulled just over the white line at a set of red lights to let an amublance through which had all the lights and sirens on, trying to get into the A&E dept at our local hospital. Knowing the lights well an how long they took to change she pulled over the line an got nabbed. 3 points and a fine....she argued it as much as she could but they weren't havin none of it.
We'll keep our fingers crossed for ya
My mate pulled just over the white line at a set of red lights to let an amublance through which had all the lights and sirens on, trying to get into the A&E dept at our local hospital. Knowing the lights well an how long they took to change she pulled over the line an got nabbed. 3 points and a fine....she argued it as much as she could but they weren't havin none of it.
We'll keep our fingers crossed for ya
mudskipper
That's my fear.
Common sense has deserted us. The lunatics now run the asylum! But in the end, I'd rather be angry about that kind of stupidity than read later about someone suffering real hurt when I blocked the help they needed. After all, I have twice been in a large white van under lights/sirens.
Thanks to you and tigger1 for your support.
13 days and counting.......
That's my fear.
Common sense has deserted us. The lunatics now run the asylum! But in the end, I'd rather be angry about that kind of stupidity than read later about someone suffering real hurt when I blocked the help they needed. After all, I have twice been in a large white van under lights/sirens.
Thanks to you and tigger1 for your support.
13 days and counting.......
I would choose NOT to go past the red as a protest against stupidity. There is a need for a clear legislated rule about how to behaviour in that situation. Until such time that the Government and the Speed Partnerships adopt a clear policy with backup in law, I shall always refuse to move across the line until a clear ORDER to do so is given.
Edit: If enough drivers do this, the pen-pushers might (and I say MIGHT) just wake up and realise that their tea is cold!
Edit: If enough drivers do this, the pen-pushers might (and I say MIGHT) just wake up and realise that their tea is cold!
Edited by Narvanath on Wednesday 23 August 08:35
The authorities (them lunatics running the asylum) have gone public after previous cases and said that ordinary motorists should NOT contravene red lights as the law still applies and there is no defence of 'letting another vehicle through' so you will get the fine and points - and as we have seen, this happens. The authorities say that emergency response drivers are trained to deal with situations like that so leave them to it, that's what the authorities have said so I suggest we follow their advice. Good luck, OP.
Is it worth taking the reg of the unmarked car to the local Police Station and requesting to speak to the person that it was assigned to yesterday. This way if it ever goes to court you will know who you need as a witness. If you wait too long, the drivers identity may not be available (I'm not sure how good records of drivers are for "pool" cars)
Good idea, which I'm not going to follow.
If I get done for this, I have no defence. As pointed out above, the law is clear. I knew the rule, and chose to break it. I will be angry at the injustice of that stupid rule, but in law I ave no defence.
As also pointed out above, would I have done the same if it was a Red Light Camers, not a video one? I don't think I would act differently.
12 days.....
If I get done for this, I have no defence. As pointed out above, the law is clear. I knew the rule, and chose to break it. I will be angry at the injustice of that stupid rule, but in law I ave no defence.
As also pointed out above, would I have done the same if it was a Red Light Camers, not a video one? I don't think I would act differently.
12 days.....
I've done it once (and I also chose to run a light onto a roundabout once, but that was because some meat-head jumped out of the car behind me and made for my door...yikes!) to let a police car through, and although there's no defence really I would argue that obstructing the emergency services is a more serious offence that carefully crossing a stop line on red lights. In that situation the law contradicts itself, and you should have no problem if it went to court BUT...there's always somebody who will say you shouldn't break the law in any circumstances, even when it's impossible not to.
My understanding is that you can run a red light if instructed to do so by BiB. Surely there is a legal arguement that the waving and gesticulating by the plod driver was interpreted as such by you and would be by any other reasonable person.
Someone has to be the first for a precedent to be set, it is unlikely that the law itself will be changed, but the interpretation of instructed to do so can be.
Keep us posted of the outcome
Someone has to be the first for a precedent to be set, it is unlikely that the law itself will be changed, but the interpretation of instructed to do so can be.
Keep us posted of the outcome
I would love to think that as it was a video camera, even if it was being monitored, common sense will prevail.
Stubby pete - good point
I certainly assumed him to be a BIB. If needed, might try that first.
Most likely I am just being a drama queen and nothing will come of this, but will post.
Might also write to my MP pointing out that lives are more at risk from not having an exemption for blue light vehicles. Still could have you for careless or dangerous if you moved through the light in an unsafe manner.
I certainly assumed him to be a BIB. If needed, might try that first.
Most likely I am just being a drama queen and nothing will come of this, but will post.
Might also write to my MP pointing out that lives are more at risk from not having an exemption for blue light vehicles. Still could have you for careless or dangerous if you moved through the light in an unsafe manner.
Same thing happened to me at the weekend. Waiting at red light in 3 lane access to large roundabout with cars in all three lanes. a fire engine came up with lights and horn on. I defy anybody not to be intimadated into moving and as we know it could be our house on fire or our loved ones in danger..
What is all this rubbish sprouted that the emergency driver is trained to negotiate the traffic - all he did was sit there edging closer to the car in front almost forcing them to go past the red light.
What is all this rubbish sprouted that the emergency driver is trained to negotiate the traffic - all he did was sit there edging closer to the car in front almost forcing them to go past the red light.
eesh I've moved over the white line to let an ambulance pass, didn't pass over the junction just moved from the 2nd lane at the lights to infront of the guy in the 1st lane. Never even crossed my mind! Luckily there's no scameras there but if they tried to do me for that they'd have a looooong battle on their hands to get any fines out of me. Think I'd even try my luck to take them to court 
rewc said:
What is all this rubbish sprouted that the emergency driver is trained to negotiate the traffic - all he did was sit there edging closer to the car in front almost forcing them to go past the red light.
That'll be the rubbish sprouted by a senior police officer, the last time an unsuspecting MoP got a ticket for a red light offence after moving over the line and sensors to let an emergency vehicle go through, and then going to the media. Website paramedic UK said:
Fined 999 driver sees red
A DRIVER who jumped a red light to let a 999 ambulance pass has been given a £60 fine and three points on his licence.Railway engineer Mark Freeman, 36, was snapped edging across a junction near his home in Doncaster, South Yorks.
The dad of five said: “The law is barmy. Moving was the only course of action I had — there could have been someone seriously ill or dying.”
He admitted the offence rather than face a big legal bill.
A Department of Transport spokesman said that The Highway Code states a vehicle should get out of the way of emergency vehicles but not in a way that endangers other road users.
This was followed by the following comment:
A paramedic said:
In the past British justice was admired and copied by numerous countries. In many cases today in the UK, there are magistrates / judges who make judgements totally lacking in justice and common sense. Whoever appoints such people are themselves committing a crime.
Interesting comment regarding traffic laws, their enforcement, and justice that vh will doubtless be keen to read.
Another commentator said:
What kind of message does this send to motorists? The Highway Code says they should move over for emergency vehicles, but if they do they get prosecuted. I hope the idiot who decided to bring this stupid prosecution never has a relative who needs an ambulance that is delayed because a motorist doesn't move over!
:irish comedian: there's more :/irish comedian:
The Highway Code does say a driver should move over, pity it doesn't also say The Law is an ass.
A press article from 10 August 2005 said:
A driver thought he was doing the right thing by moving over for a police car with flashing blue lights. Martyn Knight was soon thinking again – after the officer booked him for nudging through a red traffic light.
Mr Knight was on his way home from work when he drew up at pelican lights in his Renault Clio. A police car raced up behind and the 19-year-old barman moved on through th elights and on to the side of the road.
The ‘helpful' move of a few feet cost him a £60 fixed penalty and three points on his licence.
“I thought the police car was on a 999 call and needed to pass,” said Mr Knight, from Sketty, near Swansea. “I moved just beyond the lights to allow the police car through. I still can't believe what happened next. The policeman said he thought I'dbeen drinking and gave me a breath test which came up negative. Then he checked my car for faults and couldn't find any. Then he gave me the fixed penalty for jumping the pelican red lights. I thought it was some kind of joke to start with. It was really upsetting.”
His father Alan said: “I am furious. Martyn did the right thing to let this police car through. It looked like it was on an emergency call. Someone tries to do the right thing and gets out of the way for an emergency vehicle and they get three points on their licence. What is going to happen if people stop giving way to ambulances or fire engines because they are afraid of getting booked? We have already spoken to a solicitor and sent a complaint to the Chief Constable.”
A South Wales Police spokesman said a formal complaint about the alleged incident, in Dillwyn Street in the centre of Swansea, had been lodged.
He added: “This is being investigated. Until the outcome is known we are not in a position to comment.”
Last month, rail maintenance worker Mark Freeman was fined £60 and given three points after a camera snapped him going through a red light to allow an ambulance on an emergency call to pass.
When he refused to pay the fixed penalty the case went to magistrates in Doncaster. But Mr Freeman was advised he would be facing huge legal fees unless he entered a guilty plea.
The law does not make allowances for motorists breaking traffic laws to let emergency vehicles through.
Mr Knight was on his way home from work when he drew up at pelican lights in his Renault Clio. A police car raced up behind and the 19-year-old barman moved on through th elights and on to the side of the road.
The ‘helpful' move of a few feet cost him a £60 fixed penalty and three points on his licence.
“I thought the police car was on a 999 call and needed to pass,” said Mr Knight, from Sketty, near Swansea. “I moved just beyond the lights to allow the police car through. I still can't believe what happened next. The policeman said he thought I'dbeen drinking and gave me a breath test which came up negative. Then he checked my car for faults and couldn't find any. Then he gave me the fixed penalty for jumping the pelican red lights. I thought it was some kind of joke to start with. It was really upsetting.”
His father Alan said: “I am furious. Martyn did the right thing to let this police car through. It looked like it was on an emergency call. Someone tries to do the right thing and gets out of the way for an emergency vehicle and they get three points on their licence. What is going to happen if people stop giving way to ambulances or fire engines because they are afraid of getting booked? We have already spoken to a solicitor and sent a complaint to the Chief Constable.”
A South Wales Police spokesman said a formal complaint about the alleged incident, in Dillwyn Street in the centre of Swansea, had been lodged.
He added: “This is being investigated. Until the outcome is known we are not in a position to comment.”
Last month, rail maintenance worker Mark Freeman was fined £60 and given three points after a camera snapped him going through a red light to allow an ambulance on an emergency call to pass.
When he refused to pay the fixed penalty the case went to magistrates in Doncaster. But Mr Freeman was advised he would be facing huge legal fees unless he entered a guilty plea.
The law does not make allowances for motorists breaking traffic laws to let emergency vehicles through.
The Highway Code does say a driver should move over, pity it doesn't also say The Law is an ass.
I sympathise with the dilemma that is created through occasionally having to creep through a red light in order to make way for an emergency vehicle and the attitude on the part of some to refuse to consider such an action for fear of legal retribution.
Certain traffic light junctions- such as ones with a single two-way lanes, railings and a central pedestrian island (of which there is one on one of the main approach routes to one of our hospitals- no camera on the junction by the way) mean that we almost entirely rely on the motorist waiting at the red lights to edge through sufficiently for us to be able to get through-(which, bless'em, they generally do).
It is an unfortunate fact that if we are coming through to, or with, a patient with life-threatening injuries or life threatening medical condition then, by its very nature, it tends to be time-critical. As such, the time wasted waiting for the traffic lights to change before a vehicle will move out of the way could potentially be the difference between life and death.
Certain traffic light junctions- such as ones with a single two-way lanes, railings and a central pedestrian island (of which there is one on one of the main approach routes to one of our hospitals- no camera on the junction by the way) mean that we almost entirely rely on the motorist waiting at the red lights to edge through sufficiently for us to be able to get through-(which, bless'em, they generally do).
It is an unfortunate fact that if we are coming through to, or with, a patient with life-threatening injuries or life threatening medical condition then, by its very nature, it tends to be time-critical. As such, the time wasted waiting for the traffic lights to change before a vehicle will move out of the way could potentially be the difference between life and death.
maddog993 said:
I sympathise with the dilemma that is created through occasionally having to creep through a red light in order to make way for an emergency vehicle and the attitude on the part of some to refuse to consider such an action for fear of legal retribution.
Certain traffic light junctions- such as ones with a single two-way lanes, railings and a central pedestrian island (of which there is one on one of the main approach routes to one of our hospitals- no camera on the junction by the way) mean that we almost entirely rely on the motorist waiting at the red lights to edge through sufficiently for us to be able to get through-(which, bless'em, they generally do).
It is an unfortunate fact that if we are coming through to, or with, a patient with life-threatening injuries or life threatening medical condition then, by its very nature, it tends to be time-critical. As such, the time wasted waiting for the traffic lights to change before a vehicle will move out of the way could potentially be the difference between life and death.
Certain traffic light junctions- such as ones with a single two-way lanes, railings and a central pedestrian island (of which there is one on one of the main approach routes to one of our hospitals- no camera on the junction by the way) mean that we almost entirely rely on the motorist waiting at the red lights to edge through sufficiently for us to be able to get through-(which, bless'em, they generally do).
It is an unfortunate fact that if we are coming through to, or with, a patient with life-threatening injuries or life threatening medical condition then, by its very nature, it tends to be time-critical. As such, the time wasted waiting for the traffic lights to change before a vehicle will move out of the way could potentially be the difference between life and death.
Then why do the Police advise that you should not move through a red light to assist ambulance drivers. In the case of the motorist who was fined for going through the light to let an ambulance through the Ambulance drivers union, I believe, advised motorists not to do so. Have you discussed this reoccuring situation with your local Chief Constable?
rewc said:
maddog993 said:
I sympathise with the dilemma that is created through occasionally having to creep through a red light in order to make way for an emergency vehicle and the attitude on the part of some to refuse to consider such an action for fear of legal retribution.
Certain traffic light junctions- such as ones with a single two-way lanes, railings and a central pedestrian island (of which there is one on one of the main approach routes to one of our hospitals- no camera on the junction by the way) mean that we almost entirely rely on the motorist waiting at the red lights to edge through sufficiently for us to be able to get through-(which, bless'em, they generally do).
It is an unfortunate fact that if we are coming through to, or with, a patient with life-threatening injuries or life threatening medical condition then, by its very nature, it tends to be time-critical. As such, the time wasted waiting for the traffic lights to change before a vehicle will move out of the way could potentially be the difference between life and death.
Certain traffic light junctions- such as ones with a single two-way lanes, railings and a central pedestrian island (of which there is one on one of the main approach routes to one of our hospitals- no camera on the junction by the way) mean that we almost entirely rely on the motorist waiting at the red lights to edge through sufficiently for us to be able to get through-(which, bless'em, they generally do).
It is an unfortunate fact that if we are coming through to, or with, a patient with life-threatening injuries or life threatening medical condition then, by its very nature, it tends to be time-critical. As such, the time wasted waiting for the traffic lights to change before a vehicle will move out of the way could potentially be the difference between life and death.
Then why do the Police advise that you should not move through a red light to assist ambulance drivers. In the case of the motorist who was fined for going through the light to let an ambulance through the Ambulance drivers union, I believe, advised motorists not to do so. Have you discussed this reoccuring situation with your local Chief Constable?
Thus far,in our locality, it has not been an issue - as I point out, it is indeed a dilemma but it is a fact that certain traffic light junctions do not allow the navigation of another vehicle (especially a vehicle the size of an ambulance or fire appliance) without manoeuvre from other vehicles-if the oncoming lane is completely blocked- then usually through the lights in order to facilitate the emergency vehicle getting through.
I would never consider 'bullying' a motorist out of the way- particularly inexcusable through a red light - but in such emergency circumstances we are hugely grateful when motorists choose to 'break the law' and edge through the red lights to facilitate our passing.(I suppose at this point it is necessary to point out I am not advocating law-breaking and as always these are my views not my employer's, etc, etc......
) Edited by maddog993 on Wednesday 23 August 22:28
turbobloke said:
When he refused to pay the fixed penalty the case went to magistrates in Doncaster. But Mr Freeman was advised he would be facing huge legal fees unless he entered a guilty plea.
Nice to see justice at work then. You are not rich and cannot possibly afford to pay the scum sucking leeches - um sorry I mean lawyers therefore even though you may be (are) innocent you must plead guilty.
Give me strength grrrrr
A thread with unanimous views
- the law say's you can't
- ES vehicle operatiors are very glad that you do
- Lives are at risk if you don't
Suppose that we all wrote to our respective MPs asking for the law to be changed. Going through a red light to ease passage of an ES vehicle under blue light should not itself be a "crime". There is still careless or dangerous driving to consider if done in a way that is .... er..... careless or dangerous, I suppose.
I am writing to Mr Taylor MP tonight!
Please do likewise and let's see if we can change things, not just moan about them.
Any ES drivers - your views will naturally carry more weight with politicians
- the law say's you can't
- ES vehicle operatiors are very glad that you do
- Lives are at risk if you don't
Suppose that we all wrote to our respective MPs asking for the law to be changed. Going through a red light to ease passage of an ES vehicle under blue light should not itself be a "crime". There is still careless or dangerous driving to consider if done in a way that is .... er..... careless or dangerous, I suppose.
I am writing to Mr Taylor MP tonight!
Please do likewise and let's see if we can change things, not just moan about them.
Any ES drivers - your views will naturally carry more weight with politicians
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