Caught! Q for th BiB
Discussion
Chaps,
Got pulled this morning - first time in 5 years. Bound to happen sooner or later I guess! A rather stroppy WPC and her WPC side kick in a marked Focus Estate.
As I said there were two WPCs in their car. She pulled me over, wrote out a ticket. I asked her if her car was calibrated...she told me it hadn't but she was going off to calibrate it directly after she'd dealt with me. She then proceeded to tell me that since my (2 year old Boxster) was new, it would also be calibrated as all new cars are calibrated. I don't think this is true - my Origin B2 always show my car over reading by about 5%. Anyway, I got ticketed with doing 60mph in a 50mph zone. She told me she knew what speed I was doing from reading her speedometer. I'd passed her earlier on the same road (dual carriageway) so she would have had to have been going quicker to catch up with me.
Question is, given that her car wasn't calibrated, can she provide evidence to the court on the basis of an uncalibrated speedo?
Cheers guys,
J.
Just edited to say that I don't think they were traffic police. Don't know if that makes any odds. J.
Got pulled this morning - first time in 5 years. Bound to happen sooner or later I guess! A rather stroppy WPC and her WPC side kick in a marked Focus Estate.
As I said there were two WPCs in their car. She pulled me over, wrote out a ticket. I asked her if her car was calibrated...she told me it hadn't but she was going off to calibrate it directly after she'd dealt with me. She then proceeded to tell me that since my (2 year old Boxster) was new, it would also be calibrated as all new cars are calibrated. I don't think this is true - my Origin B2 always show my car over reading by about 5%. Anyway, I got ticketed with doing 60mph in a 50mph zone. She told me she knew what speed I was doing from reading her speedometer. I'd passed her earlier on the same road (dual carriageway) so she would have had to have been going quicker to catch up with me.
Question is, given that her car wasn't calibrated, can she provide evidence to the court on the basis of an uncalibrated speedo?
Cheers guys,
J.
Just edited to say that I don't think they were traffic police. Don't know if that makes any odds. J.
Edited by jezzaaa on Sunday 17th September 13:23
What should be done before the end of the shift is the police car driven over a measured mile at least 60mph recorded steady on the speedo (we in the old days did it 10 above, 10 below i.e. 70/50) and timed by a stop watch. So that 60 secs should come up on the stop watch - speedo correct. We gave a lee way of 2 sec plus or minus.
Or if they have access to a rolling road, similar.
Speedo of Plod car found outside above - CO cancelled and all others done that day.
The fact that there was two in the Plodmobile is corroboration in itself without the need for the speedo reading (See previous posts).
The fact that they may well not have been traffic doesn not help you.
Now I show my ignorance in that I have always understood that a calibrated speedometer in a patrol car was one that was marked in single mph marks and a balanced needle that took the wow and flutter out so the needle remained rock steady. Checks as mentioned above all that was needed to prove accuracy.
dvd
dvd
Or if they have access to a rolling road, similar.
Speedo of Plod car found outside above - CO cancelled and all others done that day.
The fact that there was two in the Plodmobile is corroboration in itself without the need for the speedo reading (See previous posts).
The fact that they may well not have been traffic doesn not help you.
Now I show my ignorance in that I have always understood that a calibrated speedometer in a patrol car was one that was marked in single mph marks and a balanced needle that took the wow and flutter out so the needle remained rock steady. Checks as mentioned above all that was needed to prove accuracy.
dvd
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Sunday 17th September 14:24
Hello DVD...many thanks mate. Much appreciated. My fault - just have to take this one on the chin. The circumstances were a bit annoying in that firstly she asked me if I was 'Taking the piss' and secondly made a reference to me not thinking the law applies just because I've got a flash car. Considering I was only a few mph over the speed limit on a 50mph dual carriageway on my overreading speedo! Anyway, my girlfriend reckons the WPC was havin PMT!! ;-)
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
Edited by jezzaaa on Wednesday 20th September 16:35
The last time I got pulled for speeding by a non-traffic car, I simply plead ignorance to the speed I was doing because I was concentrating on the road conditions more than the speedo. I accept that this defence won't work all the time but so far it's managed to net me producers over speeding tickets. Appreciably very thin ice to skate on...
jezzaaa said:
Chaps,
Got pulled this morning - first time in 5 years. Bound to happen sooner or later I guess! A rather stroppy WPC and her WPC side kick in a marked Focus Estate.
As I said there were two WPCs in their car. She pulled me over, wrote out a ticket. I asked her if her car was calibrated...she told me it hadn't but she was going off to calibrate it directly after she'd dealt with me. She then proceeded to tell me that since my (2 year old Boxster) was new, it would also be calibrated as all new cars are calibrated. I don't think this is true - my Origin B2 always show my car over reading by about 5%. Anyway, I got ticketed with doing 60mph in a 50mph zone. She told me she knew what speed I was doing from reading her speedometer. I'd passed her earlier on the same road (dual carriageway) so she would have had to have been going quicker to catch up with me.
Question is, given that her car wasn't calibrated, can she provide evidence to the court on the basis of an uncalibrated speedo?
Cheers guys,
J.
Just edited to say that I don't think they were traffic police. Don't know if that makes any odds. J.
Got pulled this morning - first time in 5 years. Bound to happen sooner or later I guess! A rather stroppy WPC and her WPC side kick in a marked Focus Estate.
As I said there were two WPCs in their car. She pulled me over, wrote out a ticket. I asked her if her car was calibrated...she told me it hadn't but she was going off to calibrate it directly after she'd dealt with me. She then proceeded to tell me that since my (2 year old Boxster) was new, it would also be calibrated as all new cars are calibrated. I don't think this is true - my Origin B2 always show my car over reading by about 5%. Anyway, I got ticketed with doing 60mph in a 50mph zone. She told me she knew what speed I was doing from reading her speedometer. I'd passed her earlier on the same road (dual carriageway) so she would have had to have been going quicker to catch up with me.
Question is, given that her car wasn't calibrated, can she provide evidence to the court on the basis of an uncalibrated speedo?
Cheers guys,
J.
Just edited to say that I don't think they were traffic police. Don't know if that makes any odds. J.
Edited by jezzaaa on Sunday 17th September 13:23
Her vehicle doesn't have to have a claibrated speedo but standard practice would be to have it's accuracy checked following a speeding prosecution.
Some stated cases that work against you though.
Bright v Pearson 1938
Basically says you can be convicted on the opinion of two Police officers who have independently at the same time formed an opinion you were speeding (no speedo required).
Nicholas v Penny 1950
Driver convicted on the evidence of one officer & speedo where there was no evidence of speedo calibration. (Conviction held because the margin over the limit was not small. 10mph in that case).
Swain v Gillette 1974
Driver convcited on the evidence of two officers & speedo which had no evidence of calibration. (Held not only did Nicholas v Penny apply but so did Bright v Pearson because they had independently formed an opinion of speed at the same time.)
jezzaaa said:
Hello DVD...many thanks mate. Much appreciated. My fault - just have to take this one on the chin. The circumstances were a bit annoying in that firstly she asked me if I was 'Taking the piss' and secondly made a reference to me not thinking the law applies just because I've got a flash car. Considering I was 5mph over the speed limit on a 50mph dual carriageway! Anyway, my girlfriend reckons the WPC was havin PMT!! ;-)
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
If this is the case, then the calibration of the speedo may not be the issue.
Defend yourself, and discredit the witness. In the first sentence she spoke to you she swore at a member of the public, which the magistrates wont like, then she basically *perhaps* showed the motive of envy in ulling you over because you had a flash car.
If you were seriously pulled for a speed which is 5mph over the limit then fight.
Her car *does not* have a calibrated speedo, and you can but your bottom dollar that she wont have tested it at the end of the shift. In court you can dicredit her through her actions.
First question: Is it correct that the first thing you said to me is (pull out notes) "Are you taking the piss?"....
Second question: It is correct isnt it that you also noted that I have I quote, "A flash car..."...
This will be most awkward and if she is as unprofessional as she has been so far will most likely have to admit what she has said, or lie. If she lies you also have an independant witness.
From what she has said it would be very easy to imply bias and or unprofessional behaviour was the reason of the pull and if the pull really was for 10 mph over the limit of 50, this in itself is within the reasonable doubt area especially if she hasnt followed the procedure for doing the follow check and matching speed. She told you '...she knew what speed I was doing from reading her speedometer. I'd passed her earlier on the same road (dual carriageway) so she would have had to have been going quicker to catch up with me.'
Ask her about this. I will bet you anything she has not followed a single procedure to match your speed and follow you at the set distance for what I believe to be 1/5th mile. Find out the exact procedure and when she is in the tock and already flustered from the first questions get her to tell the court exactly how she attained the 'evidence' against you, then ask her to tell the court how she was supposed to do it... Then tell her what she should have done.
I would fight this. Without a doubt.
Edited by justinp1 on Sunday 17th September 21:25
deeps said:
Agree with Justin, Jesus didn't she have anything more important to be doing?! What a farce!!
Evidently at that moment in time it was something that in her professional opinion she needed to deal with. That's a judgements she is paid to make. Undoubtedly if she was on her way to deal with something more important at that time she wouldn't have been dealing with this.
Ok thanks guys. I suspect it may not be worth it. As I said, I have a clean license at the moment, and it's the first time I've been pulled for 5 or 6 years. I've also got my origin to keep me safe from cameras. I will have a chat with a specialist about it just in case though so thanks for all the comments. I'll let you know what I find out.
VH and DVD - many thanks for your advice. Much appreciated.
J.
VH and DVD - many thanks for your advice. Much appreciated.
J.
I would very strongly recommend fighting this one. Non RPU Officer in a non RPU car. In my force if this was contested it would be binned from the word go, as speed enforcement is the sole reserve of RPU.
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
xxplod said:
I would very strongly recommend fighting this one. Non RPU Officer in a non RPU car. In my force if this was contested it would be binned from the word go, as speed enforcement is the sole reserve of RPU.
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
Hi ya - but isn't it true that at the moment, I would get 3 points....if I'm seen to be wasting time, could they not give me up to 6 points?
J.
xxplod said:
I would very strongly recommend fighting this one. Non RPU Officer in a non RPU car. In my force if this was contested it would be binned from the word go, as speed enforcement is the sole reserve of RPU.
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
You wouldn't be from Dorset police would you??
Arguably they could give you more points, but the number of points a court will impose is linked to a scale relative to the severity of the offence. If you were doing 60 in a 50 limit this is only just over the ACPO prosecution guidelines so is well within the range for getting 3 points. Coupled with a guilty plea, albeit a late one you would be very unlucky to get more than 3 points.
And, no I'm not Dorset. Try next door.
And, no I'm not Dorset. Try next door.
xxplod said:
I would very strongly recommend fighting this one. Non RPU Officer in a non RPU car. In my force if this was contested it would be binned from the word go, as speed enforcement is the sole reserve of RPU.
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
Thanks XXPlod. All advice is appreciated and it sounds like a good avenue to consider.
DVD - would you care to comment on xxPlod's advice?
Cheers,
J.
Edited by jezzaaa on Monday 18th September 13:02
J
xxxplod outlines a scenario that is entirely possible.
There is nothing in law that 'the witness' mentioned in RTRA 84 who forms the opinion that a vehicle is speeding has to be a trained Traffic Officer. Corroboration is required for the offence of speeding so the second officer present does this without recourse to the speedo. A single officer on a follow will use the speedo as corroboration.
In this case the officer will put a statement in to the effect that she saw m car ++++++travelling at what appeared to be a fast speed and in consequence she carried out a speed check on the vehicle by following it between points X and Y at a constant distance of XXXXX yards over ZZZ distance (should be at least 2/10th mile) The speed of the vehicle as recorded by the speedo of the police was vehicle was Max.... Min.... or a constant ....mph. The speed limit for that peice of road being BBB. There will be a para outlining the prevailing conditions, weather and traffic and number of vehicle overtaken if any. Finally at ......am/pm she made a check of the speedo of the police vehicle by driving it at a speeds of ..... against a stop watch and found it to be correct. (Speed and times should be recorded in her Note Book and signed as correct by any observer at the time of the check.
A similar statement will be put in by the sceond officer.
Now amongst that you have to find loopholes (ignoring verbal NOIP) which would be possibly the experience of the offficer to assess speed/ the method of the follow in the danger of a run in upping the speed shown by someone who does not as a matter of routine report such offences.
The question to ask yourself, irrespective of the poor approach of the officer, is was I speeding? If so then unless you can catergorically put holes in the above then a CO becomes attractive because at Court if found Guilty Mags may up the fine and points and in addition CPS will have their pound of flesh in costs of presentation of the case which could be up to £60 in addition.
Tis only you and two wopsies know what went on.
dvd
xxxplod outlines a scenario that is entirely possible.
There is nothing in law that 'the witness' mentioned in RTRA 84 who forms the opinion that a vehicle is speeding has to be a trained Traffic Officer. Corroboration is required for the offence of speeding so the second officer present does this without recourse to the speedo. A single officer on a follow will use the speedo as corroboration.
In this case the officer will put a statement in to the effect that she saw m car ++++++travelling at what appeared to be a fast speed and in consequence she carried out a speed check on the vehicle by following it between points X and Y at a constant distance of XXXXX yards over ZZZ distance (should be at least 2/10th mile) The speed of the vehicle as recorded by the speedo of the police was vehicle was Max.... Min.... or a constant ....mph. The speed limit for that peice of road being BBB. There will be a para outlining the prevailing conditions, weather and traffic and number of vehicle overtaken if any. Finally at ......am/pm she made a check of the speedo of the police vehicle by driving it at a speeds of ..... against a stop watch and found it to be correct. (Speed and times should be recorded in her Note Book and signed as correct by any observer at the time of the check.
A similar statement will be put in by the sceond officer.
Now amongst that you have to find loopholes (ignoring verbal NOIP) which would be possibly the experience of the offficer to assess speed/ the method of the follow in the danger of a run in upping the speed shown by someone who does not as a matter of routine report such offences.
The question to ask yourself, irrespective of the poor approach of the officer, is was I speeding? If so then unless you can catergorically put holes in the above then a CO becomes attractive because at Court if found Guilty Mags may up the fine and points and in addition CPS will have their pound of flesh in costs of presentation of the case which could be up to £60 in addition.
Tis only you and two wopsies know what went on.
dvd
xxplod said:
I would very strongly recommend fighting this one. Non RPU Officer in a non RPU car. In my force if this was contested it would be binned from the word go, as speed enforcement is the sole reserve of RPU.
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
What DVD has said is correct, BUT... there are a lot of potential holes here. If the Officer is not RPU then the chances are they will not have had training in calibrating a speedo (most benches will bin the job on hearing this alone). The chances of them a) knowing what to do and b) actually doing it correctly AND documenting it accordingly are pretty unlikely if you ask me.
My advice - fill in the back of the form and ask for a court hearing. If there are holes in the case, then the No Further Action letter may wing it's way to you at this stage. Put forward a defence based on inaccuracy of the speed recorded (forget whether the officer was rude, this just makes YOU look like you've a chip on your shoulder).
Then wait. Push it to the 11th hour. Get ALL their evidence and if it looks thorough and they're going to run with it, just plead guilty. Worst that will happen is that you incur a few £££ more costs, but you can probably even argue that if they've been anything less than prompt with supplying you the evidence - after all, you need time to get proper legal advice, don't you?
My force area the no RPU officer wouldn't do the testing. It would be a traffic officer who would provide a statement.
Chaps - thanks once again....am very grateful for all the advice given. A couple of additional things that have occurred to me; the WPC told me she thought I was doing 60 as I approached the slip road of the exit from which I left the motorway. I'm pretty sure my speedo was reading 52 or 53mph all the way along that road for the 3-4 miles before the exit(because the police car was following) until I exited on the slip road. As has been said, the cars speedo over reads so technically I was within the limit. Went through at least 2 GATSOs as well. On exiting, I looked at my speedo and it read XXmph (a few miles per hour above the limit). My car has an electronic display showing the speed underneath the speedometer so I am fairly sure of this.
The one stupid thing I did do (which my girl friend reminded me of last night!), is that when said WPC told me I was doing 60 coming off the dual carriageway, I told her I disagreed and that I thought I was doing about XXmph (a few mph over the limit). A stupid thing to say, and no doubt it will appear in the notes of the two officers. I guess that's probably torn it....but I'm still tempted to contest it initially, as XXXPlod suggests, just to see if they drop it. An additional fine doesn't bother me, as long as they don't add any additional points.
Cheers,
J.
The one stupid thing I did do (which my girl friend reminded me of last night!), is that when said WPC told me I was doing 60 coming off the dual carriageway, I told her I disagreed and that I thought I was doing about XXmph (a few mph over the limit). A stupid thing to say, and no doubt it will appear in the notes of the two officers. I guess that's probably torn it....but I'm still tempted to contest it initially, as XXXPlod suggests, just to see if they drop it. An additional fine doesn't bother me, as long as they don't add any additional points.
Cheers,
J.
Edited by jezzaaa on Tuesday 19th September 09:43
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