Requirements for a house search
Discussion
Have a read of this:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PM1N154NNTNONQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/10/06/nball06.xml
This quote was interesting:
"He read me my rights and said he did not need a search warrant because I was under caution. I said I had nothing to hide. Then he marched me to an unmarked car."
Is this true?
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PM1N154NNTNONQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/10/06/nball06.xml
This quote was interesting:
"He read me my rights and said he did not need a search warrant because I was under caution. I said I had nothing to hide. Then he marched me to an unmarked car."
Is this true?
Either her poor memory or poor reporting or an officer who did not know the very basic first weeks training. (unlikely)
You can search any place the person was at the time of their arrest (or immediatly before) and as she was taken to the police station then I would suggest she was under arrest and thus the search to recover the evidence which in this case was a football - great crime !
From what I can read... At the end of the day this is a dispute between neighbours, one set of which reported the theft of a football and the police are duty bound (whether they have more pressing jobs to do or not) to deal with the complaint. ( I am pretty sure the officer would rather have been doing other things )
I would be VERY suprised if the officers had not tried the "lets not be silly, please can we have the ball back to give back to your neighbours" before they arrested her, or maybe there was a history to the dispute..
What gets me is she or the papers have spun her neighbour issues into a "haven't the police got better things to do" story. :-) - One of hundreds of such jobs every day that take time away from burglary / assault / robbery investigations...
Headline... "She was arrested, fingerprinted and had her house searched - just because a neighbour said she didn't give a ball back "
What should the police have done, hung up and said "Not interested / Too busy" ??
where's my pink perfect world gone
LOL
You can search any place the person was at the time of their arrest (or immediatly before) and as she was taken to the police station then I would suggest she was under arrest and thus the search to recover the evidence which in this case was a football - great crime !
From what I can read... At the end of the day this is a dispute between neighbours, one set of which reported the theft of a football and the police are duty bound (whether they have more pressing jobs to do or not) to deal with the complaint. ( I am pretty sure the officer would rather have been doing other things )
I would be VERY suprised if the officers had not tried the "lets not be silly, please can we have the ball back to give back to your neighbours" before they arrested her, or maybe there was a history to the dispute..
What gets me is she or the papers have spun her neighbour issues into a "haven't the police got better things to do" story. :-) - One of hundreds of such jobs every day that take time away from burglary / assault / robbery investigations...
Headline... "She was arrested, fingerprinted and had her house searched - just because a neighbour said she didn't give a ball back "
What should the police have done, hung up and said "Not interested / Too busy" ??
where's my pink perfect world gone
LOLAllegation of theft has been made. Police are required to investigate that theft. They were I guess provided with evidence (the photo) by the neighbour. Once the allegation has been made a crime report is created which the force has to 'detect' otherwise the force is seen as failing. There is a named offender who has to be spoken to under caution. If she was cautioned and taken away then she was clearly under arrest (she may have left that bit out). If under arrest for theft there is a power to search the home address under s18 or s32 of PACE (different circs on each). ALL persons arrested are fingerprinted, dna'd and photo'd (including police officers falsely accused of assault at work who get arrested etc). The reason for this being that a number of very serious offences have been detected from dna and prints taken.
Its clear there is an ongoing issue here that the police have been placed in the middle of because of governments demands with regards recording and detecting of crime.
Some years back this could have been dealt with differently but not now that the gov't have decided to intrinsicly measure police performance.
To be fair an hour and a half is very good turn around!!!
Its clear there is an ongoing issue here that the police have been placed in the middle of because of governments demands with regards recording and detecting of crime.
Some years back this could have been dealt with differently but not now that the gov't have decided to intrinsicly measure police performance.
To be fair an hour and a half is very good turn around!!!
Police spend a lot of time dealing with neighbour disputes. If they don't go though sometimes they end in serious assaults or even murder. So as much as I'm sure ignoring it is the preferred option they just can't.
In reality most people should just GROW UP!! Although I'm sure if she had been told to do that she would have still complained!!
In reality most people should just GROW UP!! Although I'm sure if she had been told to do that she would have still complained!!
VXR you are quite correct.
Indeed, one of my neighbours stuck a brick through our Lotus window. It was, I was informed, my own fault for having a nice car in that town. Police didn't bother to attend. Then he smashed in my front window, but this time was cautioned as he politely admitted it, the police made it in under two hours. Not bad. Then, suspiciously I had a garage burgled, I have fingerprints on items and footprints on items. Police not interested.
Funny that.
Indeed, one of my neighbours stuck a brick through our Lotus window. It was, I was informed, my own fault for having a nice car in that town. Police didn't bother to attend. Then he smashed in my front window, but this time was cautioned as he politely admitted it, the police made it in under two hours. Not bad. Then, suspiciously I had a garage burgled, I have fingerprints on items and footprints on items. Police not interested.
Funny that.
Section 32. Power to search the place where the person was at the time or immediately before arrest for articles relating to the offence for which suspect is arrested. So power to search for the footy in the house is there under S32.
Section 18(1) Power to search property when suspect is under arrest for indictable offence such as theft, needs insp authority to search and there will be a copy of the authority to give to the occupier.
Section 18(3 i think) power to search property with suspect present prior to arrival at a police station.
Be aware the above also allow the use of force to gain entry on the property itself and any persons therein.
Section 18(1) Power to search property when suspect is under arrest for indictable offence such as theft, needs insp authority to search and there will be a copy of the authority to give to the occupier.
Section 18(3 i think) power to search property with suspect present prior to arrival at a police station.
Be aware the above also allow the use of force to gain entry on the property itself and any persons therein.
Ill get my coat! I appreciate it's almost certainly half a story, having called the police once when a car had been stolen to be basically told "and what do you expect us to do about it?" I can sympatyhise with similar stories. I just thought a search of a property was a pretty serious thing needing a warrant, not something that could be done under a caution for an incredibly minor offence.
Is it even an offence? If I shove a fiver in your pocket, can I then call the police and say you've nicked it?
Is it even an offence? If I shove a fiver in your pocket, can I then call the police and say you've nicked it?
Well yeah it is an offence.
Theft is appropriating property with the intention of perminanly depriving the other of it.
She took the footy thus appropriating it, Refused to give it back so thats perminantly depriving the other of it.
Intention can only be obatined in interview. So she has nicked it.
The reason for no warrant is due to the fact if we had to obtain a warrant we could be looking at hours to get a warrant sworn, in that time the property could have been disposed of. That and the fact that in england the police carry out hundreds if not more house searches a day and imagine the backlog at magistrates to get the warrants sworn.
So they gave us the power without warrant under S32. The Section 18 stuff relates to where the suspect was arrested away from home such as the case of shoplifting and requires an inspectors authority.
Theft is appropriating property with the intention of perminanly depriving the other of it.
She took the footy thus appropriating it, Refused to give it back so thats perminantly depriving the other of it.
Intention can only be obatined in interview. So she has nicked it.
The reason for no warrant is due to the fact if we had to obtain a warrant we could be looking at hours to get a warrant sworn, in that time the property could have been disposed of. That and the fact that in england the police carry out hundreds if not more house searches a day and imagine the backlog at magistrates to get the warrants sworn.
So they gave us the power without warrant under S32. The Section 18 stuff relates to where the suspect was arrested away from home such as the case of shoplifting and requires an inspectors authority.
You could indeed do that... so long as you would be willing to face prosecution for perverting the course of justice and presuming some force had been applied to the person you placed it upon maybe common assault as well.
Also if you could not prove it then you would be a fiver down!!
Also if you could not prove it then you would be a fiver down!!
Also on that point if you slipped a fiver into my pocket and i got stopped and you claimed i nicked it, i doubt very much id get nicked due to several options such as, i didnt know it was there, id never met you before, id give it back.
And no doubt your evidence would be shakey at best with the curcs. We dont just take your word for everything, we ask questions around what had happened. You can just say he nicked my fiver and off he gets carted. He would be detained for sure.
And no doubt your evidence would be shakey at best with the curcs. We dont just take your word for everything, we ask questions around what had happened. You can just say he nicked my fiver and off he gets carted. He would be detained for sure.
^Slider^ said:
Theft is appropriating property with the intention of perminanly depriving the other of it.
mmmm, does that mean that if she was going to keep it a week then give it back (to "teach them a lesson"
she would get away with it? It would no longer be theft as she wasn't going to perminately deprive them of the ball. Would it then become a civil matter? And on a simlar vein, if she said she was keeping it for a week then giving it back, thus not stealing it, is there anything that the police would be able to do if she advised them of her intentions?
That would be down to the CPS to decide wether to charge or not if that was used as a defence.
Unlikely to succeed as every shoplifter could do the same.
We could never prove if she was going to return the ball in a week and she could never prove that she was so in all honesty it would be down to the magistrates to decide wether to believe her or not.
I would hope that there was the option of returning the ball before being arrested as thats what i would offer then NFA as far as i was concerned.
PS Hollywood Wheels is sometimes my nickname at work. I'm assuming its for similar reasons!
Unlikely to succeed as every shoplifter could do the same.
We could never prove if she was going to return the ball in a week and she could never prove that she was so in all honesty it would be down to the magistrates to decide wether to believe her or not.
I would hope that there was the option of returning the ball before being arrested as thats what i would offer then NFA as far as i was concerned.
PS Hollywood Wheels is sometimes my nickname at work. I'm assuming its for similar reasons!
Edited by ^Slider^ on Friday 6th October 15:43
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