Car Jacking, and Vandalising Yobs

[matmoxon]

Could some of the Police PH members answer me this question, it may have been broached before but I haven't seen it.

What do I do if a gang of scrotes surround my car with either the intent on vandalising it, (this has happened in Hull I believe the attack only stopped due to one of the scrotes noticing kids in the car) or stealing it (I drive with my doors locked more often than not). The said scrotes are using threatening behaviour, if I get out of the car it would be stolen and I am at risk of being assaulted/killed or my car taking a severe beating, I obviously phone the police, but by the time they get to me whatever they were going to do will have been done.

What would happen if I took the Traction control off, revved it to the redline and dropped the clutch, thus probably running over any of them in front of my car, if I was in genuine fear for my life would I get prosecuted or loose my driving licence if I maimed/killed one (I should get a medal imho).

I tend to avoid the less desirable areas especially at night so the chances of this happening are rare, but I just thought I'd ask.

Thanks
Matt

Edited by matmoxon on Wednesday 25th October 13:00

[jasandjules]

matmoxon said:

What would happen if I took the Traction control off, revved it to the redline and dropped the clutch, thus probably running over any of them in front of my car, if I was in genuine fear for my life would I get prosecuted or loose my driving licence if I maimed/killed one (I should get a medal imho).

There are cases of people being done in this type of situation, and also of people "getting away" with it... Basically you are entitled to save yourself, and in some cases break other laws in so doing, as a defence of necessity. i.e. it was necessary to drive away to prevent them damaging you/the car.

I wouldn't run it to the redline and floor it, but I suspect if you began driving gently away to give them a chance to get out of the way, that would seem fair enough.

Will be interested to hear Bib's comments.

[justinp1]

jasandjules said:

matmoxon said:

What would happen if I took the Traction control off, revved it to the redline and dropped the clutch, thus probably running over any of them in front of my car, if I was in genuine fear for my life would I get prosecuted or loose my driving licence if I maimed/killed one (I should get a medal imho).

There are cases of people being done in this type of situation, and also of people "getting away" with it... Basically you are entitled to save yourself, and in some cases break other laws in so doing, as a defence of necessity. i.e. it was necessary to drive away to prevent them damaging you/the car.

I wouldn't run it to the redline and floor it, but I suspect if you began driving gently away to give them a chance to get out of the way, that would seem fair enough.

Will be interested to hear Bib's comments.

Completely agreed.

However to a certain extent, this type of situation would not be judged by the BiB, it would all come down to the exact facts of the case, for example whether it was 1, 2 or 10 kids, their age, size, their weapons and any other circumstances.

Those factors would be taken into account by the jury, if it was indeed a manslaughter case as to whether you were using reasonable force.

[westy04]

matmoxon said:

Could some of the Police PH members answer me this question, it may have been broached before but I haven't seen it.

What do I do if a gang of scrotes surround my car with either the intent on vandalising it, (this has happened in Hull I believe the attack only stopped due to one of the scrotes noticing kids in the car) or stealing it (I drive with my doors locked more often than not). The said scrotes are using threatening behaviour, if I get out of the car it would be stolen and I am at risk of being assaulted/killed or my car taking a severe beating, I obviously phone the police, but by the time they get to me whatever they were going to do will have been done.

What would happen if I took the Traction control off, revved it to the redline and dropped the clutch, thus probably running over any of them in front of my car, if I was in genuine fear for my life would I get prosecuted or loose my driving licence if I maimed/killed one (I should get a medal imho).

I tend to avoid the less desirable areas especially at night so the chances of this happening are rare, but I just thought I'd ask.

Thanks
Matt

Edited by matmoxon on Wednesday 25th October 13:00

Just noticed you have a ST-2 I have a ST-3 too and am very worried about this situation too. There have been a few aggrevated thefts of ST's in the Brum area in the last few weeks.
In that situation with my little un in the back, I wouldn't of hesitated and just floored it. If they deside to still be standing in the front of the car at that time, then so be it. There loss, not mine.
I've done it before, about 16 years ago. I'm not going to tell the whole story, but I ended up having a guy in my passenger seat casually trying to remove my head unit (I'm in the drivers seat by the way). My drivers door is open and I'm constantly being punched in the face by another scrote. The car is surrounded by about another 8 scrouts including some god forsaken ugly girls. So what do I do. Push the guy out of the car whilst flooring the accelerator. 2 of them go flying over the bonnet and roof of the car. Do I give a sh!t, no. Would I do it again, definatly. Should have reversed back and finnished the job, only joking.

[^Slider^]

You are entitled to use reasonable force to protect yourself or another from the immediate and unlawfull use of violence.

It would be down to the CPS to decide wether the force used was reasonable and proportionate in the curcumstances.

This would be down to many factors, such as numbers of persons, behaviour etc Also factors on your part.

Had said yobs smashed your window and in an attempt to get away from being hit you accelerated away and hit one as you went then thats reasonable. Had you sat there, turned off TC and then went then it may be deamed otherwise as it would be a more deliberate act to use the vehicle as a weapon rather than a method of escape.

But if you were locked in your car and no force was being directed towards you and it was only the fear of force then using the car may be deemed excessive.

Each situation would be judged so there are no hard and fast rules.

Using a vehicle as a weapon must be reasonable and proportionate. Not just to you but to another person who wasnt there at the time based on material facts.

[havoc]

In other words if they're unarmed youngsters (<16) who only want to ruin your P&J, then you need to sit there and take it, then claim off YOUR insurance while the police do bugger all to find them as they've no resources and more important 'targets' , and even if they do miraculously find them they'll get a lot of sympathy from the court and a nice holiday, while your compensation gets paid at £2/week for a month then stops.

Of course, if they're wearing big hoodies and appear full-grown you can't tell how old they are and whether they're carrying or not...but unfortunately the courts tend to assume 20:20 hindsight in these cases...

Lovely country eh? As was said in another thread...how did it get this far?

[guydw]

To be fair to slider he says that if you are in your car, they are outside, but haven't actually done anything other than scare you, to use your car as a potentially lethal weapon at this point may be seen as an over reaction.

However, this type of situation would be very frightening, and I guess the best you can do is use as much caution and control as you can to not allow the situation to escalate whilst at the same time protecting yourself and your property. Personally I would love to be able to carry a big stick, so I would get out and deal with them all personally - seriously, if this was a real risk these scrotes would be far less likely to threaten ordinary people... when I was young if you damaged someone car and property you'd have got a hiding and that was fair enough - now kids know you are the one who gets in trouble.....

[jasandjules]

^Slider^ said:

It would be down to the CPS to decide wether the force used was reasonable and proportionate in the curcumstances.

That's down to the jury.
The CPS Will decide if it is "in the public interests" to prosecute in the first place.

The question is what do the BiB suggest we do in these instances?

[havoc]

guydw said:

when I was young if you damaged someone car and property you'd have got a hiding and that was fair enough - now kids know you are the one who gets in trouble.....

Yep, no deterrent anymore...when I was young if i said this adult hit me my father's first words were 'what did you do?'. Now, with most parents, it seems to be 'lets call the police', or go round to exact revenge. Everyone's kids are innocent, of course...it's other people's that are the problem!

[jasandjules]

havoc said:

Everyone's kids are innocent, of course...it's other people's that are the problem!

You are not wrong. I nearly spat out my dinner when I saw some woman on the news whose brat was caught robbing old people.. She said, "he't not a bad lad really, just a bit bored".. Then went on to explain how that was the fault of the school/council/govt/man up the road/ everyone but her fault. Oh, and the lack of discipline was also a result of the school/council etc..

[andmole]

jasandjules said:

havoc said:

Everyone's kids are innocent, of course...it's other people's that are the problem!

You are not wrong. I nearly spat out my dinner when I saw some woman on the news whose brat was caught robbing old people.. She said, "he't not a bad lad really, just a bit bored".. Then went on to explain how that was the fault of the school/council/govt/man up the road/ everyone but her fault. Oh, and the lack of discipline was also a result of the school/council etc..

You try teaching the little darlings, with the restictions that we have placed on us.

I would like to add that the majority are fine, unfortunately the minority who aren't are fg awful, and totally out of control.

[pvapour]

justinp1 said:

jasandjules said:

matmoxon said:

What would happen if I took the Traction control off, revved it to the redline and dropped the clutch, thus probably running over any of them in front of my car, if I was in genuine fear for my life would I get prosecuted or loose my driving licence if I maimed/killed one (I should get a medal imho).

There are cases of people being done in this type of situation, and also of people "getting away" with it... Basically you are entitled to save yourself, and in some cases break other laws in so doing, as a defence of necessity. i.e. it was necessary to drive away to prevent them damaging you/the car.

I wouldn't run it to the redline and floor it, but I suspect if you began driving gently away to give them a chance to get out of the way, that would seem fair enough.

Will be interested to hear Bib's comments.

Completely agreed.

However to a certain extent, this type of situation would not be judged by the BiB, it would all come down to the exact facts of the case, for example whether it was 1, 2 or 10 kids, their age, size, their weapons and any other circumstances.

Those factors would be taken into account by the jury, if it was indeed a manslaughter case as to whether you were using reasonable force.

if they were carrying weapons etc and there were 5+ of them, would it be an idea to take photos with your camera phone? would this act as hard evidence? if so, then maybe a few moves backwards and forwards would be permissable (sp) as I guess confusion on your intended direction of travel would arrise from the adrenalin fueled situation...

Edited by pvapour on Thursday 26th October 10:17

[guydw]

I reckon in most cases you could drive out of a group of yobs quite easily without having to actually speed and run someone over... if someone was standing in the way, they'd have to move eventually, even if it was in the direction you were travelling in, if the violence escalated, you'd run the over...

[jwo]

if i was in that situation i would certainly leave in a hurry and if i injured one of the light scrotes so be it! Self preservation is the name of the game. Unfortunately the law is an ass but i would deal with that afterwards.

if more people stood up to these hoody wearing scumbags (with the protection of the law on their side, not the perpetrator's side this country would be a lot safer).

[^Slider^]

jasandjules said:

^Slider^ said:

It would be down to the CPS to decide wether the force used was reasonable and proportionate in the curcumstances.

That's down to the jury.
The CPS Will decide if it is "in the public interests" to prosecute in the first place.

The question is what do the BiB suggest we do in these instances?

Well yes and no, The CPS will decide if there is a realistic chance of a sucessfull prosicution. And as such would decide if the force was reasonable and proportionate, If they think that it wasnt then the mags will then decide.

All i can suggest is that you use reasonable and proportionate force in the curcumstances. I cant say what is and whats not as its down to each individual case.

As others have suggested, just drive off, there is no need to boot it away.

The only example i can give really is.

If you were approached by a person of same build, sex etc unnarmed and is acting in a way where you feel that you are about to be subjected to unlawfull force (think town centers on a friday night) then you are allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself or another. So if you try and walk away but he follows, then you hit him and then leg it, that would be classsed as reasonable force.

Same example, you hit him and instead of running away you hit him a few times, that would be excessive force as the threat would end after he was on the deck.

If that same male was massively smaller than yourself then hitting him in the first place would be excessive as you could have just pushed him away and the threat itself would be small.

With regards to weapons of which a car would become.
If you make a deliberate act to hit them with the car and they are unnarmed then you will be using excessive force. If he jumps on the car with a baseball bat, knife etc then you floor it and hit him in an effort to run away then that could be reasonable in the curcumstances.

Having chavs being a bit threatening is no reason to use a car as a weapon. Same group of chavs with baseball bats is different.

I cant give a definative answer on this one im afraid as its quite individual.

As for the dig at the police a few posts up, Thanks for the contribution it really helped in this discussion.

[streaky]

Rest assured that the situation you describe could not occur with the area covered by the Metropolitan Police ... they not allowed to have "yobs" - Streaky