Speeding Photo - Driver not visible
Discussion
Can anybody help?
We are facing a speeding fine/ticket and have the photographic evidence from the police.
However, as the vehicle in question is a tall van, the photo does not show who was driving the vehicle as the top part (where the driver is) is cut off.
It could have been one of 3 or 4 drivers on this particular day.
How do we stand with regards to the law as there is no apparent proof who was driving the vehicle.
We are facing a speeding fine/ticket and have the photographic evidence from the police.
However, as the vehicle in question is a tall van, the photo does not show who was driving the vehicle as the top part (where the driver is) is cut off.
It could have been one of 3 or 4 drivers on this particular day.
How do we stand with regards to the law as there is no apparent proof who was driving the vehicle.
The recorded keeper is required to name the driver under s.172 of the Road Traffic Act.
Failure to name the driver will result in the registered keeper being prosecuted for failure to identify the driver unless the keeper can show the court, and it will be a court appearance, that he does not know and cannot find out despite making all efforts to do so. Details of the efforts made will need to be given to the court and it's not sufficient to say that 'I asked everyone who could have been driving'. If the court believe that the keeper really does not know and cannot find out, then a 'not guilty' verdict may happen. If not, expect a higher fine plus considerable costs and the appropriate points on the licence.
The only time this seems to work well is in the case of larger companies who, maybe, send out a work party of several employees in one car and all of them are entitled to drive, but not one of them will own up. It's unlikely that the Company Secretary would face prosecution in such a case. I do know the H.R. Manager of a large company and they sometimes have this problem. What they do is to name those who could have been driving and invite the police to visit the company, in works hours, to interview the individuals and offer the use of an interview room for this purpose.
In general, however, you will confess or be found guilty of not confessing or of not naming someone who will confess.
Failure to name the driver will result in the registered keeper being prosecuted for failure to identify the driver unless the keeper can show the court, and it will be a court appearance, that he does not know and cannot find out despite making all efforts to do so. Details of the efforts made will need to be given to the court and it's not sufficient to say that 'I asked everyone who could have been driving'. If the court believe that the keeper really does not know and cannot find out, then a 'not guilty' verdict may happen. If not, expect a higher fine plus considerable costs and the appropriate points on the licence.
The only time this seems to work well is in the case of larger companies who, maybe, send out a work party of several employees in one car and all of them are entitled to drive, but not one of them will own up. It's unlikely that the Company Secretary would face prosecution in such a case. I do know the H.R. Manager of a large company and they sometimes have this problem. What they do is to name those who could have been driving and invite the police to visit the company, in works hours, to interview the individuals and offer the use of an interview room for this purpose.
In general, however, you will confess or be found guilty of not confessing or of not naming someone who will confess.
Surely it should be the Camera Partnership's responsibility to provide conclusive evidence of who was speeding. The technology exists.
I believe that you must be able to demonstrate to the court that you execised 'reasonable diligence' in identifying the driver. Statements from each one, etc.
I wonder what would happen if your vehicles were registered to a non-driver? Is it legally possible to do this?
I believe that you must be able to demonstrate to the court that you execised 'reasonable diligence' in identifying the driver. Statements from each one, etc.
I wonder what would happen if your vehicles were registered to a non-driver? Is it legally possible to do this?
A vehicle can be registered to any adult resident or with a postal address in the UK. They don't have to have, or have held, a driving licence. If a non-licence-holding person is convicted of 'failing to furnish driver details' they will be fined and have points allocated to a 'ghost' driving licence so that if they ever apply for a licence those points can be added if within the time frame for the validity of the points.
In fact, the postal address in the UK can be a PO Box and this, apparently, causes big problems for the cash-camera organisations in terms of tracing the actual driver or issuing a summons, as it takes a lot of effort to find the PO Box holder.
My son is shortly going to live in France, but wants to keep a vehicle in the UK for when he is working here (about 5 months each year). He has formed a Limited Company and will register that company as the registered keeper with a PO Box as the address. All quite legal and above-board. What a good idea. The car will actually be kept at my home whilst he's in France, unless he lends it to any friends or business associates and I shall be able to use it whenever I wish. I certainly don't wish to be named as the registered keeper.
In fact, the postal address in the UK can be a PO Box and this, apparently, causes big problems for the cash-camera organisations in terms of tracing the actual driver or issuing a summons, as it takes a lot of effort to find the PO Box holder.
My son is shortly going to live in France, but wants to keep a vehicle in the UK for when he is working here (about 5 months each year). He has formed a Limited Company and will register that company as the registered keeper with a PO Box as the address. All quite legal and above-board. What a good idea. The car will actually be kept at my home whilst he's in France, unless he lends it to any friends or business associates and I shall be able to use it whenever I wish. I certainly don't wish to be named as the registered keeper.
cooperman said:
If a non-licence-holding person is convicted of 'failing to furnish driver details' they will be fined and have points allocated to a 'ghost' driving licence so that if they ever apply for a licence those points can be added if within the time frame for the validity of the points
What happens if they go over 12 points?
jasandjules said:
Ok,
So let's say we have a relative who is disabled and can never drive. Register all the cars to their name? The points won't matter...
So let's say we have a relative who is disabled and can never drive. Register all the cars to their name? The points won't matter...
Absolutely!
The fines could be higher if there were to be a lot of offences, but they could plead guilty by letter each time, as it wouldn't be a fine by way of a FPN as with speeding.
Anyway, it may be ruled that the entire 'requirement to confess' is unlawful under the ECHR ruling expected soon.
Mr2Mike said:
cooperman said:
If a non-licence-holding person is convicted of 'failing to furnish driver details' they will be fined and have points allocated to a 'ghost' driving licence so that if they ever apply for a licence those points can be added if within the time frame for the validity of the points
What happens if they go over 12 points?
They get banned from driving, obviously.
Oh wait....
Ok this might be daft. How about the driver who was speeding admits it.
i take it the person knows who they were and is just trying to worm out of the consequences?
Posts like this irritate me.
The law might be crap and out of date, there might have been nobody else on the road to kill, they might have been the worlds best driver, there could be a million reasons to post but the stupid law that is in place is the law we have to work with so......Who the hell cares. Not me. Tuff.
You were speeding, you knew it, you took the chance. Put your bloody hands up and stop clogging these forums with your boring bleating of how can I get out of this by asking us
PATHETIC...
Be honest whoever you were. 3 points £60. Get over it. If you have 9 points then you will get banned. Good you are obviously a flipping moron to get 12 points in 3 years. I have a young daughter who has to walk on a pavement next to where you could have been driving right past her. If you ignore the laws I would crush your stupid car and that would stop you.
Stop being selfish and get a life.
I am now really peed off.
i take it the person knows who they were and is just trying to worm out of the consequences?
Posts like this irritate me.
The law might be crap and out of date, there might have been nobody else on the road to kill, they might have been the worlds best driver, there could be a million reasons to post but the stupid law that is in place is the law we have to work with so......Who the hell cares. Not me. Tuff.
You were speeding, you knew it, you took the chance. Put your bloody hands up and stop clogging these forums with your boring bleating of how can I get out of this by asking us
PATHETIC...
Be honest whoever you were. 3 points £60. Get over it. If you have 9 points then you will get banned. Good you are obviously a flipping moron to get 12 points in 3 years. I have a young daughter who has to walk on a pavement next to where you could have been driving right past her. If you ignore the laws I would crush your stupid car and that would stop you.
Stop being selfish and get a life.
I am now really peed off.
Plotloss said:
gently bentley said:
I am now really peed off.
You're also not compelled to read or post on such topics.
Quite but is this not just daft?
I thought the idea was serious useful debate on topical issues not bleating about getting caught and seeking counsel on how to get round the system.
Plotloss said:
Or, alternatively, its a genuine request for assistance on a pertinent matter for this forum to discuss.
Could be either in reality and as such merits discussion IMO.
Could be either in reality and as such merits discussion IMO.
So you support there request for people to come on and tell them or advise them how to get off with this?
I'm sorry but I don't know you but I can't believe that it was you are condoning.
Did you read the first post?
I am a reasonable guy but these kinds of post have no place with sensible law abiding road users and are not what being a PH is all about.
gently bentley said:
Plotloss said:
Or, alternatively, its a genuine request for assistance on a pertinent matter for this forum to discuss.
Could be either in reality and as such merits discussion IMO.
Could be either in reality and as such merits discussion IMO.
So you support there request for people to come on and tell them or advise them how to get off with this?
I'm sorry but I don't know you but I can't believe that it was you are condoning.
Did you read the first post?
I am a reasonable guy but these kinds of post have no place with sensible law abiding road users and are not what being a PH is all about.
That's not the way I read it. Not once in the OP does he ask how to get out of it.
gently bentley said:
Plotloss said:
Or, alternatively, its a genuine request for assistance on a pertinent matter for this forum to discuss.
Could be either in reality and as such merits discussion IMO.
Could be either in reality and as such merits discussion IMO.
So you support there request for people to come on and tell them or advise them how to get off with this?
I'm sorry but I don't know you but I can't believe that it was you are condoning.
Did you read the first post?
I am a reasonable guy but these kinds of post have no place with sensible law abiding road users and are not what being a PH is all about.
I absolutely support any method of showing cameras to be the useless 'safety' blunt implement that they are.
I cannot, will not and shall not place the velocity tax and its dumb collectors in front of genuine road safety.
That, I would proffer, is what being a committed road user, perhaps Pistonhead, is all about.
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