4 Jailed for Speed Ticket Scam, 75 to go!!
Discussion
the four people arrested so far were all charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.
all four have been jailed for about four months even though they did not have any previous convictions and admitted the offence.
Police will arrest about 75 people in the coming months who have all given a false name and address after they were caught by mobile cameras speeding mainly on Kirklees roads.
If they do not want to wait to be arrested then they can contact the detectives to make an appointment.
Full Story Here
all four have been jailed for about four months even though they did not have any previous convictions and admitted the offence.
Police will arrest about 75 people in the coming months who have all given a false name and address after they were caught by mobile cameras speeding mainly on Kirklees roads.
If they do not want to wait to be arrested then they can contact the detectives to make an appointment.
Full Story Here
Perhaps if the word "justice" is replaced with the more accurate "revenue raising coupled with potentially losing the roof from over one's family's heads for no good reason", then it sounds rather more disproportionate.
It is very wrong headed to punish what in the vast, vast majority of cases is simply a minor transgresion of an out of date law with such draconian measures that it pushes people into the realms of perverting the course of justice and prison.
Outraged? Me? Youbetcha!
SM
It is very wrong headed to punish what in the vast, vast majority of cases is simply a minor transgresion of an out of date law with such draconian measures that it pushes people into the realms of perverting the course of justice and prison.
Outraged? Me? Youbetcha!
SM
Edited by supermono on Thursday 16th November 16:48
Problem: Jails are so full we letting dangerous criminals out early.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Dino D said:
Problem: Jails are so full we letting dangerous criminals out early.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Perverting the course of justice & perjury has to be dealt with severely, or the whole justice system is completely undermined. Our justice system is based around people being truthful on the stand & not obstructing the process with deceit.
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
vonhosen said:
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
But is jail time really the answer?
Do the public really need protecting from these people?
I can't help feeling that this is grossly out of proportion.
I've got a better idea: Don't punish speeding with penalties so disproportionate they make perverting the course of justice a more attractive option...
The PTB have always got the option of a dangerous driving charge where appropriate, and I guess there's the odd speeding case where that kind of punishment is appropriate.
Then just bill people for the sixty rubs speeding tax for the other cases, no points, no desperation.
SM
The PTB have always got the option of a dangerous driving charge where appropriate, and I guess there's the odd speeding case where that kind of punishment is appropriate.
Then just bill people for the sixty rubs speeding tax for the other cases, no points, no desperation.
SM
vonhosen said:
Dino D said:
Problem: Jails are so full we letting dangerous criminals out early.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Perverting the course of justice & perjury has to be dealt with severely, or the whole justice system is completely undermined. Our justice system is based around people being truthful on the stand & not obstructing the process with deceit.
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
Can we look forward to a prosecution for Perverting the Course of Justice in every case where a defendant or witness can be proven to have been lying in their evidence? I have in mind the woman who claimed a man had sexually assaulted her and it became clear after he spent some years in jail that she had made it up. Is she being prosecuted? What about Dorset Camera Partnership who claimed a local councillor was driving at 51 mph when in fact the secondary evidence showed he was in fact only doing 13mph.
vonhosen said:
Perverting the course of justice & perjury has to be dealt with severely, or the whole justice system is completely undermined. Our justice system is based around people being truthful on the stand & not obstructing the process with deceit.
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
I have to say your are right on that point. After reading the article properly it is clear this case actually has little to do with speeding and more to do with perverting the courts which is the offence they are punishing with jail time. (And rightly so)
How dumb were these people to try this stunt in the first place??
leosayer said:
But is jail time really the answer?
Do the public really need protecting from these people?
I can't help feeling that this is grossly out of proportion.
The primary purpose of imprisonment is the deprivation of liberty as a form of punishment and not the protection of the the public. Nor do you send people to prison in order to rehabilitate them.
rewc said:
vonhosen said:
Dino D said:
Problem: Jails are so full we letting dangerous criminals out early.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Solution: Lets send some speeding fraudters to jail and free some more really dangerous prisoners to make room.
I do not condone what this lot did but surely jail time is not the best solution. Make them work it off instead.
Perverting the course of justice & perjury has to be dealt with severely, or the whole justice system is completely undermined. Our justice system is based around people being truthful on the stand & not obstructing the process with deceit.
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
Can we look forward to a prosecution for Perverting the Course of Justice in every case where a defendant or witness can be proven to have been lying in their evidence? I have in mind the woman who claimed a man had sexually assaulted her and it became clear after he spent some years in jail that she had made it up. Is she being prosecuted? What about Dorset Camera Partnership who claimed a local councillor was driving at 51 mph when in fact the secondary evidence showed he was in fact only doing 13mph.
We have seen people prosecuted for cases where they make false rape allegations etc.
Perverting is more than simply telling an untruth though. Telling an untruth under oath is perjury.
vonhosen said:
Perverting the course of justice & perjury has to be dealt with severely, or the whole justice system is completely undermined. Our justice system is based around people being truthful on the stand & not obstructing the process with deceit.
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
My opinion of this answer is that it seems to be a very
black-and-white answer.
As ever, life isn't so simple and can appear
to be more complex.
Given that the prisons are full, is it the best use
of resources to lock up folks who have lied about
a speeding case ?
Are there any more deserving cases ?
Burglars, muggers, murderers, rapists, child-sex
offenders for instance ?
rewc said:
Can we look forward to a prosecution for Perverting the Course of Justice in every case where a defendant or witness can be proven to have been lying in their evidence?
Good point, surely whenever a defendant pleads "not guilty" and is subsequently found guilty they should be charged with perverting?
vonhosen said:
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
You're deliberately missing the point, as usual, and coming over as being sanctimonious.
Supposing they created a law whereby you get six months inside if you were caught stepping on the cracks in the pavement? There would be huge amounts of people stepping on cracks and trying to get away with it. It'd be a bad law and there would be widespread non-conformance. There would also be huge numbers of people perverting the course of justice to avoid the disproportionate punishment.
So now we have a bad law, mass non-compliance and general degradation of the country's justice system. Just like we do with speeding today. And the more draconion the imbeciles behind it get, the more work they'll have enforcing it. And it stinks.
SM
dcb said:
vonhosen said:
Perverting the course of justice & perjury has to be dealt with severely, or the whole justice system is completely undermined. Our justice system is based around people being truthful on the stand & not obstructing the process with deceit.
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
My opinion of this answer is that it seems to be a very
black-and-white answer.
As ever, life isn't so simple and can appear
to be more complex.
Given that the prisons are full, is it the best use
of resources to lock up folks who have lied about
a speeding case ?
Are there any more deserving cases ?
Burglars, muggers, murderers, rapists, child-sex
offenders for instance ?
If the legal & courts processes are undermined then you can't have a true trial for any of those offences. You have no sense of getting to the truth of the matter.
The legal & court processes must be protected by everyone feeling compelled to be truthful in their dealings with them. That goes for every offence, no matter what it is.
supermono said:
vonhosen said:
How minor the original alleged offence is, does not have a great deal of relevance once the line to perverting is crossed.
You're deliberately missing the point, as usual, and coming over as being sanctimonious.
Supposing they created a law whereby you get six months inside if you were caught stepping on the cracks in the pavement? There would be huge amounts of people stepping on cracks and trying to get away with it. It'd be a bad law and there would be widespread non-conformance. There would also be huge numbers of people perverting the course of justice to avoid the disproportionate punishment.
So now we have a bad law, mass non-compliance and general degradation of the country's justice system. Just like we do with speeding today. And the more draconion the imbeciles behind it get, the more work they'll have enforcing it. And it stinks.
SM
I don't agree, because for starters I don't believe speed limits are bad law.
I hope they get off.
If they're damaging the course of justice for this, it's nothing compared to the damage that was done by the introduction of this scamera scheme, and caused the 75 to take the course of action they did.
We have so much law on the statute books, this was probably law before tony blair anyhow. If that's the case we recovered before so we'll recover again. Allright that's out there somewhere, but I don't think they're damaging anything.
What they're doing is standing their ground. The police are showing a hard line. Both sides wrap the whole in cynicism. What of it. I happen to believe that this particular government drive is wrong. The fact that 75 people are taking a stand, says to me that all is not lost, and for them I have the greatest of respect.
It says it all to me that they are threatened with jail but there is a struggle to find the places in prison. That's the last laugh really. The government roll out their grand ideas. The implementors get all high and mighty, and then the govenment can't support them in their directed aims.
It says it all that there is another wrong done (letting hardened criminals out of jail) to cover for the original wrong (scameras).
If they're damaging the course of justice for this, it's nothing compared to the damage that was done by the introduction of this scamera scheme, and caused the 75 to take the course of action they did.
We have so much law on the statute books, this was probably law before tony blair anyhow. If that's the case we recovered before so we'll recover again. Allright that's out there somewhere, but I don't think they're damaging anything.
What they're doing is standing their ground. The police are showing a hard line. Both sides wrap the whole in cynicism. What of it. I happen to believe that this particular government drive is wrong. The fact that 75 people are taking a stand, says to me that all is not lost, and for them I have the greatest of respect.
It says it all to me that they are threatened with jail but there is a struggle to find the places in prison. That's the last laugh really. The government roll out their grand ideas. The implementors get all high and mighty, and then the govenment can't support them in their directed aims.
It says it all that there is another wrong done (letting hardened criminals out of jail) to cover for the original wrong (scameras).
Edited by dilbert on Thursday 16th November 17:49
dilbert said:
I hope they get off.
If them damaging the course of justice for this, it's nothing compared to the damage that was done, and caused them to take the course of action they did.
We have so much law on the statute books, this was probably law before tony blair anyhow. If that's the case we recovered before so we'll recover again. Allright that's out there somewhere, but I don't think they're damaging anything.
What they're doing is standing their ground. The police are showing a hard line. Both sides wrap the whole in cynicism. What of it. I happen to believe that this particular government drive is wrong. The fact that 75 people are taking a stand, says to me that all is not lost, and for them I have the greatest of respect.
It says it all to me that they threaten with jail but struggle to find the places. That's the last laugh really. The government roll out their grand ideas. The implementors get all high and mighty, and then the govenment can't support them in their directed aims.
If them damaging the course of justice for this, it's nothing compared to the damage that was done, and caused them to take the course of action they did.
We have so much law on the statute books, this was probably law before tony blair anyhow. If that's the case we recovered before so we'll recover again. Allright that's out there somewhere, but I don't think they're damaging anything.
What they're doing is standing their ground. The police are showing a hard line. Both sides wrap the whole in cynicism. What of it. I happen to believe that this particular government drive is wrong. The fact that 75 people are taking a stand, says to me that all is not lost, and for them I have the greatest of respect.
It says it all to me that they threaten with jail but struggle to find the places. That's the last laugh really. The government roll out their grand ideas. The implementors get all high and mighty, and then the govenment can't support them in their directed aims.
Wrong wrong wrong. And (for once) I know a lot about this area.
This is very simple. IF YOU LIE IN COURT OR IN A SWORN STATEMENT YOU SHOULD GO TO JAIL. If this is not the rule then there would be no incentive to tell the truth, the whole truth etc etc.
I used to get criminal clients who would be all cocky and "yeah man I'll just tell lies and get off....."
I used to tell them that lying in court is an absolute NO NO.
You just DON'T DO IT.
Even if the crime is say the theft of a milk bottle. If you ever get to the stage of court or sworn statements you TELL THE TRUTH.
This is a fundamental tenet of our system.
These cheeky cvnts thought they were being clever, and I hope they get all the anal sex they can handle for a few months while they think about how stupid and arrogant their actions were.
Well you can do what you want. I'll decide what I do, and take the consequences if I have to.
If they're going to be brave in the face of adversity, I hope they do O.K. But that's just me.
If I stand with them for a moment, and consider what you have said, I come to the conclusion that it wasn't the 75 that lied first. The aim of the scameras was hidden and denied.
Personally I think it's wrong to lie. But maybe it's just wrong to lie inside a court. Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you're going to play dirty so am I. Once the damage has been done, it's been done.
We are witnessing the beginning of an ideological war. Wars have soldiers, and some of them are victims. If someone drops a bomb on your house, you don't mind shooting out some loopholes to snipe at the aggressors.
If they're going to be brave in the face of adversity, I hope they do O.K. But that's just me.
If I stand with them for a moment, and consider what you have said, I come to the conclusion that it wasn't the 75 that lied first. The aim of the scameras was hidden and denied.
Personally I think it's wrong to lie. But maybe it's just wrong to lie inside a court. Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you're going to play dirty so am I. Once the damage has been done, it's been done.
We are witnessing the beginning of an ideological war. Wars have soldiers, and some of them are victims. If someone drops a bomb on your house, you don't mind shooting out some loopholes to snipe at the aggressors.
Edited by dilbert on Thursday 16th November 17:59
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