Flashing amber lights at crossing - offence to drive?

[711]

Hi all,

I witnessed a Tower Hamlets Community Transport minibus display terrible driving today.

The minibus overtook me on the left (operational bus lane) and attempted to drive through a pedestrian crossing full of people. The lights on the crossing had just changed from red to flashing amber, and I was stationary a couple of cars back from the lead car waiting for the pedestrians.

The minibus crossed the white line of the crossing before stopping, forcing the pedestrians to scatter off the crossing. The question is, what offences (if any) has this driver committed?

Is it worth reporting to the police, bearing in mind this happened just outside the Royal London Hospital with lots of CCTV?

I wouldn't normally be such a busy body, but this kind of bullying driving from someone who is responsible for a minibus full of people irks me a lot

[esselte]

If it was a bus then presumably he could use the bus lane?

[711]

esselte said:

If it was a bus then presumably he could use the bus lane?

I've looked up the name of the organisation and they are a small charity operating minibuses to offer transport services to the community.

I don't know if a minibus used in that way would be elligible to use a bus lane. To be honest, I was more concerned about the driver operating the minibus in such an aggressive way towards the people on the pedestrian crossing rather than any contraventions that Red Ken might get upset about

[711]

In fact, as one of their buses was involved in a fatal accident recently it looks like they need to be taken to task over their driving standards. I think I will be taking the time to report this incident to the police.

Article below:

Day trip ends in death as disabled minibus overturns
Evening Standard (London), Jun 9, 2006 by ROB SINGH

A DAY trip to the seaside ended in horror when a minibus carrying 15 handicapped people and their carers from east London crashed and overturned, killing one person.

Three people suffered serious injuries and eight others were hurt.

The minibus was hired by a Bangladeshi group from Tower Hamlets through a community transport charity. The group had been in Brighton for the day having travelled from London in the morning.

But as they drove home yesterday afternoon on the A23 near Hickstead, West Sussex, the minibus crashed and turned onto its side in the central reservation.

One of the most seriously injured was airlifted to hospital in a police helicopter. A man in his thirties later died from his injuries.

One eyewitness, who was travelling southbound on the dual carriageway A23, said he pulled up and helped to carry some of the injured people out of the vehicle.

Advertisement

"One person had very bad injuries to their arm and a lady had a broken ankle," he added. No other vehicle was involved. The minibus was provided by Tower Hamlets Community Transport, a charity based in Limehouse set up to provide transport to voluntary and community groups in the area.

The charity has a fleet of minibuses and uses volunteers who are trained to drive the buses.

Simon Rouse, the charity's project co- ordinator, said the vehicle involved was a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter 16-seater. He said the accident had left him in "complete shock" and nothing like it had happened before with one of the charity's vehicles.

A fleet of 25 ambulance vehicles and police officers attended the accident shortly before 4pm.

A spokesman for Sussex Police said the driver of the minibus has been arrested and will be questioned today.

(c)2006. Associated Newspapers Ltd.. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

Edited by 711 on Sunday 3rd December 02:22

[CharlesW]

If the light has changed from red to flashing amber AND there are still pedestrians on the crossing, you are not permitted to proceed until the crossing is clear of pedestrians. Your minibus driver therefore committed an offence by ignoring the flashing amber. By undertaking a line of stationary traffic at a pedestrian crossing he may well be liable to prosecution for dangerous driving. You will need 2 witnesses, before the police can do anything about it.

[vonhosen]

CharlesW said:

If the light has changed from red to flashing amber AND there are still pedestrians on the crossing, you are not permitted to proceed until the crossing is clear of pedestrians. Your minibus driver therefore committed an offence by ignoring the flashing amber. By undertaking a line of stationary traffic at a pedestrian crossing he may well be liable to prosecution for dangerous driving. You will need 2 witnesses, before the police can do anything about it.

Not strictly true.
You only have to accord precedence to them, you don't have to wait until they are clear of it.

If he is entitled to be in the lane
(Bus lanes are for
(a) motor vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver);
(b) local buses not so constructed or adapted; and
(c) pedal cycles and taxis where indicated.),
then he is allowed to pass stationary traffic in the other lane.

He is just not allowed to
(a) pass ahead of the foremost part of the lead moving MOTOR VEHICLE proceeding in the same direction, approaching the crossing & within the controlled area.
(b) pass ahead of the foremost part of the VEHICLE which is the lead stationary vehicle according precedence etc.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 2nd December 19:27

[leadfootlydon]

Sounds like disgraceful driving to me.

I was always told that PEDESTRIANS have the right of way under a flashing orange light. That means a flashing orange at traffic lights and also the permanent flashing at zebra/pelican crossings.

Unfortunately I have no idea about chapter and verse. At the very least this sounds like driving without due consideration, but could also be classed as dangerous driving.

[allaway]

Correct me if im wrong Von but Highway Code says When Amber light is flahing you MUST give way to any peds on the crossing. (Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 23 & 26 & RTRA sect 25(5)0.

[vonhosen]

allaway said:

Correct me if im wrong Von but Highway Code says When Amber light is flahing you MUST give way to any peds on the crossing. (Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 23 & 26 & RTRA sect 25(5)0.

Yes that is according precedence.
Once you have done that, you can continue on.

(That is when they have crossed infront of you, you may proceed even if they are still on the crossing itself, having not yet made it to the other side.)

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 2nd December 20:16

[CharlesW]

According to the original post the minibus driver forced the pedestrians on the crossing to scatter.

[leadfootlydon]

This prompts an interesting grey area.

If the pedestrian is not actually hit then no offense has been commited?

[tvrgit]

leadfootlydon said:

This prompts an interesting grey area.

If the pedestrian is not actually hit then no offense has been commited?

If the pedestrian has to dive out of the way, or slow down or speed up, then the driver has failed to give precedence so the offence is committed.

[vonhosen]

CharlesW said:

According to the original post the minibus driver forced the pedestrians on the crossing to scatter.

Wasn't arguing with that.

I was clarifying point of law with what you said

CharlesW said:

If the light has changed from red to flashing amber AND there are still pedestrians on the crossing, you are not permitted to proceed until the crossing is clear of pedestrians

You can still proceed while they are still on the crossing provided you have accorded precedence.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 2nd December 21:01

[vonhosen]

leadfootlydon said:

This prompts an interesting grey area.

If the pedestrian is not actually hit then no offense has been commited?

That's not the case, if they are on the crossing but you pass infront of them forcing them to stop, then you have failed to accord precedence even if you don't hit them.

[leadfootlydon]

vonhosen said:

leadfootlydon said:

This prompts an interesting grey area.

If the pedestrian is not actually hit then no offense has been commited?

That's not the case, if they are on the crossing but you pass infront of them forcing them to stop, then you have failed to accord precedence even if you don't hit them.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

(Actually, I have visions of Road Runner and Wily Coyote screeching to a halt, waiting for Grandma to take the exact step which allows them to legitimately race off again).

[streaky]

vonhosen said:

allaway said:

Correct me if im wrong Von but Highway Code says When Amber light is flahing you MUST give way to any peds on the crossing. (Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 23 & 26 & RTRA sect 25(5)0.

Yes that is according precedence.
Once you have done that, you can continue on.

(That is when they have crossed infront of you, you may proceed even if they are still on the crossing itself, having not yet made it to the other side.)

And what happens, if, having passed the far side of the front of your vehicle, they change their minds and turn back ... just as you pass "behind" (or, rather, over) them? - Streaky

[V8 Archie]

streaky said:

And what happens, if, having passed the far side of the front of your vehicle, they change their minds and turn back ... just as you pass "behind" (or, rather, over) them? - Streaky

I'd say they receive the Darwin award for indecisiveness.

[Parrot of Doom]

vonhosen said:

allaway said:

Correct me if im wrong Von but Highway Code says When Amber light is flahing you MUST give way to any peds on the crossing. (Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 23 & 26 & RTRA sect 25(5)0.

Yes that is according precedence.
Once you have done that, you can continue on.

(That is when they have crossed infront of you, you may proceed even if they are still on the crossing itself, having not yet made it to the other side.)

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 2nd December 20:16

I think that law needs looking at. I always wait for peds to clear the crossing. If I drive off after they have passed me, you could end up with oncoming traffic (filtering motorcycles for example) assuming the crossing is clear, and hitting a ped.

[tvrgit]

[redacted]

[vonhosen]

streaky said:

vonhosen said:

allaway said:

Correct me if im wrong Von but Highway Code says When Amber light is flahing you MUST give way to any peds on the crossing. (Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 23 & 26 & RTRA sect 25(5)0.

Yes that is according precedence.
Once you have done that, you can continue on.

(That is when they have crossed infront of you, you may proceed even if they are still on the crossing itself, having not yet made it to the other side.)

And what happens, if, having passed the far side of the front of your vehicle, they change their minds and turn back ... just as you pass "behind" (or, rather, over) them? - Streaky

You still haven't commited the offence of failing to accord precedence, because you did.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 3rd December 17:47