We have penalty points - why not reward points?

[flemke]

One of the more ineffective means by which those in power rule Britain is to punish undesirable behaviour without bothering to reward admirable behaviour.
An absence of positive reinforcement or incentives does not work in nature. There is no reason why it should work in social or civil affairs and, indeed, it does not.

Just as drivers get penalty points for driving badly, why should they not receive plus points for driving particularly well?
One could receive “plus points” to reduce his/her current penalty points total, or could even have plus points added to a clean licence to have something “in the bank”.
(As a minor version of this, some SCPs now offer “Speed Awareness” courses in lieu of penalty points, but they are limited in number, limited in application, and only come into play after the fact.)

Someone at this point will probably chime in that if you’re a good driver, you won’t need protection against penalty points. That might sound glibly correct, but we all know how easy it is to get points for yielding to an emergency vehicle at a red light, getting caught at a box junction when another car usurps your intended safe harbour, or harmlessly doing 65 in a 60 and being nailed by the camera van purposefully hidden behind the bushes.
Apart from the practical potential benefit of having plus points on one’s licence, having them would be a goal in itself, just as having a clean licence is now. The difference is that, today, to have a clean licence one does not need to do anything well, one only needs to stay under the speed limit.
Another benefit would be that, just as underwriters reward a history of no claims, one could expect them to reward drivers who evidence above-average care and skill.

How might this work? There are a number of things that could justify plus points, such as:

- extended history of driving with no offences,
- extended history of driving with no insurance claims,
- successful completion of advanced driving course or refresher course, and
- observations by marked or unmarked Trafpol of good lane discipline, spatial awareness, overtaking technique. Why couldn’t someone be pulled and rewarded for driving well?

This last element might be especially effective if vonhosen is correct that if drivers are conscious that an unmarked police car might be travelling near them (such as on M23), that will affect their driving.

Let’s give drivers something to aspire to, not just something to be afraid of. Surely there should be more to good driving than staying under the speed limit. The present system does nothing to recognise that.
Most people seem to lack both an awareness that driving can be better or worse, and an incentive to improve their own. A system that actually, in the real world, rewards good driving would help to achieve those things.




This proposal has probably been made many times before. I’m suggesting it here just because I cannot recall having read it previously.

[BigBob]

Mmmmm....... Good thoughts apart from one small problem - WHERE DO THE GOVERNMENT MAKE ANY MONEY OUT OF IT



BB

[ipsg.glf]

I'm not keen on this idea per-se given than I do not think we should reward people for doing what any law abiding citizen should be doing as a matter of course.

For the same reason, I do not think we should reward children who go to school, or crims who manage to keep out of trouble, etc..

But I can see the merit in allowing people who have driven consistently without collision to have a ligher penalty point allowance.

I would also like to see:

Novice drivers restricted to a bhp/tonne ratio
Novice drivers unable to carry >1 passengers
Formalisation of IAM/RoADRA tests under a reformed DSA
More TrafPol

[toni896]

BigBob said:

Mmmmm....... Good thoughts apart from one small problem - WHERE DO THE GOVERNMENT MAKE ANY MONEY OUT OF IT



BB

for each set of reward point you pay them 60 tp have the put on your license for them to be valid, you then pay 60 for them to take em off.

Oh wait ...

[speedchick]

ipsg.glf said:

I would also like to see:

Novice drivers restricted to a bhp/tonne ratio
Novice drivers unable to carry >1 passengers

Not sure about that one, there have been times when I have had an inpromptu driving lesson in the other half's Laguna and we have had the kids with us (don't panic, I am insured for it!), and no doubt when I finally get round to doing it proper and get my licence I will take turns driving the very same car, and probably with the kids in too.

[blueyes]

We have it in Italy.

You start off with 20 points and they deduct for offences.

If you're a good boy/girl for 2 years you get an extra 2 points to play with, up to a maximum of 6 extra.



AND... if you get Gatsoed you don't have to reveal the driver (privicy laws or something) you can just opt to pay double the fine and get no points.

AND...we have 150 kph limits on our 3 lane motorways.... cruise at 160kph no problem






WTF am I doing here?

[Dwight VanDriver]

>>>>>>AND... if you get Gatsoed you don't have to reveal the driver (privicy laws or something) you can just opt to pay double the fine and get no points. <<<<<<<

MODS: Please remove that bit from post above ^^^^^^^

Someone in N Wales/South Yorks?No 10 may be reading.

dvd

[smeggy]

There was a good thread in SafeSpeed a while back, worth the read:

www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3025#3025

[CommanderJameson]

I proposed something similar but not the same a while ago:

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=2&f=10&t=259597&h=0&hw=experience+points

[allaway]

In a way you do get reward points because you are rewarded for avoiding insurance claims with reduced insurance. Because someone does not have points does not necessarily mean they are a great driver just that they havent been caught.

[flemke]

ipsg.glf said:

I'm not keen on this idea per-se given than I do not think we should reward people for doing what any law abiding citizen should be doing as a matter of course.

For the same reason, I do not think we should reward children who go to school, or crims who manage to keep out of trouble, etc..

The objective is not to reward for obeying the law. The objective is to create incentives for people to improve their driving. At present they have almost none.

Obeying the law would be a proxy, in the same way that speed limits are a proxy. With speed limits, the idea isn't that the limit itself is sacred, but rather that staying within it helps to ensure control of the car (we can agree or disagree, but that is their principal objective), as well as to minimise damage in an RTA.

For plus points, one would not be rewarded for heeding the law; one would be rewarded for driving well, for which heeding the law would be (even according to the authorities) a prerequisite.

[flemke]

CommanderJameson said:

I proposed something similar but not the same a while ago:

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=2&f=10&t=259597&h=0&hw=experience+points

I think I missed it at the time, CJ.

Your "Experience Points" and plus points as outlined above - they wouldn't need to be mutually exclusive, would they?

Cheers.

[flemke]

allaway said:

In a way you do get reward points because you are rewarded for avoiding insurance claims with reduced insurance. Because someone does not have points does not necessarily mean they are a great driver just that they havent been caught.

Quite so. We would benefit from a system that more broadly reflects the quality of people's driving. The present system is very poor, as manifested by the mediocre and steadily declining standard of British driving that we see before us every day.

The insurance industry has private commercial motives. At times they may coincide with public policy goals, but at other times they may differ. It is a sad state of affairs when we as a society are forced to rely on a private industry to sort out a broad public need, and something on which we dare not rely.
This issue is the Government's responsibility. The Government has chosen to apply a penalty points system to all drivers. In light of the highly-limited benefits of their present system, it is up to Government to consider other means of encouraging people to drive better.
Anything that offers drivers a positive incentive to think about and endeavour to improve their driving has to be a good thing.


What got me thinking about giving drivers encouragement not merely to stay under the speed limit but to drive better was the current thread about unmarked cars on the M23.
In that thread, vonhosen maintains that if drivers were aware, from both road signs and occasionally seeing an unmarked car sitting on the hard shoulder with a car that it has just pulled, that unmarked cars are cruising the area, their standard of driving would improve.
The logical extension of that expectation is that the unmarked Trafpol should not only be punishing bad driving, but that they should also be rewarding good driving.

[CommanderJameson]

flemke said:

CommanderJameson said:

I proposed something similar but not the same a while ago:

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=2&f=10&t=259597&h=0&hw=experience+points

I think I missed it at the time, CJ.

Your "Experience Points" and plus points as outlined above - they wouldn't need to be mutually exclusive, would they?

Cheers.

I wouldn't have thought so. The two schemes complement each other.

There's entirely too much acceptance of mediocrity around these days. Being rewarded for actively improving your driving and demonstrating that you are more than just competent behind the wheel would be step toward ending this.

[negative creep]

very interesting thread, and I like the idea of reward points. Whilst I'm sure they would be supported by, and awarded to, keener drivers, I just can't see such a thing washing with the numpties out there.

Thanks to government propaganda, we have countless drivers who now believe that speed is the root of all problems, that as long as you stay below the limit, then you are a safe driver. I lose count of the idiots I see tailgating, using foglights, lane drifting etc etc yet I am also sure that they are blissfully unaware that they are doing anything wrong, safe in the knowledge they are under that magical median line

[motorwise]

awarded points for doing what you should be doing anyway as a responsible driver - don't think it'll catch on do you?

[flemke]

motorwise said:

awarded points for doing what you should be doing anyway as a responsible driver - don't think it'll catch on do you?

Except that driving standards are not binary - good or bad.

The driving that is acceptable to the broad populace is below the standard of an enthusiast, and the average enthusiast's driving is below the standard of Police Class 1. The first, lowest standard is, however, allowed by the authorities and probably always will be. Therefore the question is, How can we encourage everyone whose standard is allowed but below Class 1 to raise it to a higher level?
What people should be doing and what they are doing are often different, even though what they are doing is allowed.

[motorwise]

flemke said:

motorwise said:

awarded points for doing what you should be doing anyway as a responsible driver - don't think it'll catch on do you?

Except that driving standards are not binary - good or bad.

The driving that is acceptable to the broad populace is below the standard of an enthusiast, and the average enthusiast's driving is below the standard of Police Class 1. The first, lowest standard is, however, allowed by the authorities and probably always will be. Therefore the question is, How can we encourage everyone whose standard is allowed but below Class 1 to raise it to a higher level?
What people should be doing and what they are doing are often different, even though what they are doing is allowed.

take your point

the only way is through longer training and harder driving tests - a vehicle is a dangerous weapon and the training and examining should reflect this - a specified amount of time behind the wheel before you can take a test (similar to flying hours in aeroplane training)

perhaps a further test every five years might help - don't know - it's clear though that after passing their test people in general think thats it and don't carry on honing their skills

[BigBob]

motorwise said:

............. perhaps a further test every five years might help - don't know - it's clear though that after passing their test people in general think thats it and don't carry on honing their skills

Personally Im dead against re-testing EXCEPT where it is the result of driving faling below certain pre-set standards and at the instruction of a Court.

Can you imagine the consequences of such a situation with the present anti-car 'establishment' we have now. They are slowly depriving people of access to the roads by ever high levels of taxation, allowing the infrastructure to deteriorate, unrealistic speed limits, all causing more snarl-ups, then lumping congestion charging etc on top.

What a new tool of oppression compulsory re-testing could become for them. How long would it take them to either (a) Introduce 'Pass' quotas or (b) Allow the waiting list to become unmanagable.

You may have driving perfectly safely, and at an acceptable standard for years - re-test time comes around and you happen to be the first one tested that exceeds the examiner's 'Pass' quota for the month - Bang, no licence, no job, no home ...........

Sorry, last thing we need to do is give the Whitehall feckwits any more power to screw us over.




BB

[Peter Ward]

blueyes said:

We have it in Italy.

You start off with 20 points and they deduct for offences.

If you're a good boy/girl for 2 years you get an extra 2 points to play with, up to a maximum of 6 extra.



AND... if you get Gatsoed you don't have to reveal the driver (privicy laws or something) you can just opt to pay double the fine and get no points.

AND...we have 150 kph limits on our 3 lane motorways.... cruise at 160kph no problem






WTF am I doing here?

So much for harmonised EU motoring laws .

You may remember I wrote to my MP about the idea of the DVLA providing information to other EU police about offences abroad. Obviously an election is close because he actually replied! He has forwarded my letter to the DfT for comment and will respond when he gets an answer from them. We'll see.

But you can just imagine it, can't you? An Italian speeds in UK. Italian "DVLA" somehow just can't find the driver details within the 6 months required, so Italian misses out on the points. A Briton speeds in Italy. British DVLA instantly acts to pass on all details plus bank account, VISA card account, credit rating, inside leg measurement, somehow omitting to mention that you can avoid points by paying double. Briton therefore gets points pronto and justice is seen to be done. Not.

While of course a Briton travels along unrestricted Autobahn at 200mph. Polizei see it and smile. The joys of harmonised laws.

BTW, I just looked at the German police website. Speed is not one of the main subjects. Even when you search for "speed", you only find it mentioned in relation to the top speed of their helicopters.