Failure to notify fine
Discussion
Short answer is the issuer of the fine becomes a creditor of the company and may receive a share of any assets. The car is an asset of the company if it is registered to the company. When the company is liquidated all the assets will be sold off and creditors paid out before the shareholders see anything.
Exactly the V5 does not signify ownership. The company was merely set up to process some payments to me and has no assets so if the fine will go down with the company then its good by company..
In fact I have a new idea... How about a company that provides a registration service for people. It would be a business incorporated offshore with non-UK directors. Speeding NIP's turn into failure to notify which get turned into fines which get unpaid - what are they going to do?
In fact I have a new idea... How about a company that provides a registration service for people. It would be a business incorporated offshore with non-UK directors. Speeding NIP's turn into failure to notify which get turned into fines which get unpaid - what are they going to do?
How would you register a car to an offshore company? Do you not need a UK address to register a vehicle?
Also if you say the company does not own the vehicle could you prove it, you would need to produce an invoice for the purchase made out to yourself or somebody else, which may open a new can of worms regarding the motoring offences.
Also if you say the company does not own the vehicle could you prove it, you would need to produce an invoice for the purchase made out to yourself or somebody else, which may open a new can of worms regarding the motoring offences.
No seriously the company doesn't own it and as the business is a UK registered limited company it is quite easy to prove, because it isn't listed as an asset on the audited accounts that have been lodged for the last 10 years..
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
p490kvp said:
No seriously the company doesn't own it and as the business is a UK registered limited company it is quite easy to prove, because it isn't listed as an asset on the audited accounts that have been lodged for the last 10 years..
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
Whilst of course you have confidence in the scheme, I have less confidence that if this case were to go to court, especially if the CPS discovered that you were using this method more than once.
Of course, you may be right, but I wouldnt want to pick up the legal bill if you were wrong...
Perverting the course of justice is the current hot topic for the CPS especially with motoring offences. If it was shown that the method was an elaborate way to commit offences without the proper personal prosecution, then you could be in hot water.
I completely agree that they would be absolutely furious with the Syrian company directors living in Syria. A country that we have such excellent diplomatic relations with and of course the Syrian government would be completely happy to extradite them to the UK to face such claims....
Yeah right and pigs might fly.
Yeah right and pigs might fly.
under "continued registration" the registered keeper is responsible for any fines, parking tickets, road fund licence etc incurred - this is the whole point of getting the previous keeper to deal with log book now and be responsible for changing the details - next step will be seizing the car to cover the debt
I'm very sorry but seizing the car to recover a debt...
I think I'd be calling my lawyers - The name on the V5 (as that document itself states) does not show legal ownership. Therefore the car may not be used to re claim the debts of anyone other than the debts of the person who actually owns the car.
You must understand the distinction between the legal entities of Limited company and the individual. They are not one and the same.
The state would also be very reluctant to change the V5 to show ownership too - because then it would be used as evidence in all kinds of domestic affairs PLUS there would be absolutely no reason why a 15 year old could not OWN a car...then what would you do??
I think I'd be calling my lawyers - The name on the V5 (as that document itself states) does not show legal ownership. Therefore the car may not be used to re claim the debts of anyone other than the debts of the person who actually owns the car.
You must understand the distinction between the legal entities of Limited company and the individual. They are not one and the same.
The state would also be very reluctant to change the V5 to show ownership too - because then it would be used as evidence in all kinds of domestic affairs PLUS there would be absolutely no reason why a 15 year old could not OWN a car...then what would you do??
p490kvp said:
No seriously the company doesn't own it and as the business is a UK registered limited company it is quite easy to prove, because it isn't listed as an asset on the audited accounts that have been lodged for the last 10 years..
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
A motor vehicle cannot be registered at a PO Box mailing address. It must be registered to a named individual or company at a proper address.
If the car was to be in the name of the Russian company it would have to be registered in Russia and have Russian number plates, which would mean it could not be used in the UK for more than six months without being re registered on UK plates.
M5Dave said:
p490kvp said:
No seriously the company doesn't own it and as the business is a UK registered limited company it is quite easy to prove, because it isn't listed as an asset on the audited accounts that have been lodged for the last 10 years..
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
With regards to my other idea...Actually no there is no rule that says the address needs to be a UK one - but even that would be no barrier would it? I mean lets say the company is called Superfast Russia with its head office in Moscow and a PO BOX mailing address in the UK.
It would be beautiful and there would need to be a major change in the law to put a stop to it.
One other thing you say about proving a company doesn't own a car....I think you are getting the burden of proof all mixed up... In a criminal case you are innocent until they prove you otherwise. Therefore the car belongs to who I say it was until they prove otherwise....
A motor vehicle cannot be registered at a PO Box mailing address. It must be registered to a named individual or company at a proper address.
If the car was to be in the name of the Russian company it would have to be registered in Russia and have Russian number plates, which would mean it could not be used in the UK for more than six months without being re registered on UK plates.
Thanks Dave - he's just not getting it is he?
cars in this country are seized for no insurance now and impounded until otherwise is proved - so I don't think they'll hessitate for non payment of fines - they'll seize the car until owership is proved - this could potentially happen to all your agency customers (if they fall foul of the law)
have you read the other thread? have a butchers at this
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=347118&f=10&h=0
Edited by motorwise on Sunday 21st January 12:01
It would be good to hear the views of some lawyers here because M5 and motorwise - you are missing things here.
Re: PO BOX - An individual can not use a PO Box to register a car BUT a corporate body can. In any event a PO BOX number is still traceable back to a source but anyway a company CAN register with a PO BOX.
On the point of seizing cars etc. The state may not take away a car due to a dispute with the registered keeper due to the fact he does not own it. Otherwise you are punishing the wrong party.
With regard to registering a vehicle - Are you crazy? There are very many none UK residents that register a UK car in the UK. All you need is an address to use for picking up the mail.
Re: PO BOX - An individual can not use a PO Box to register a car BUT a corporate body can. In any event a PO BOX number is still traceable back to a source but anyway a company CAN register with a PO BOX.
On the point of seizing cars etc. The state may not take away a car due to a dispute with the registered keeper due to the fact he does not own it. Otherwise you are punishing the wrong party.
With regard to registering a vehicle - Are you crazy? There are very many none UK residents that register a UK car in the UK. All you need is an address to use for picking up the mail.
[quote=motorwise]they'll seize the car until owership is proved - this could potentially happen to all your agency customers (if they fall foul of the law)
quote]
Ownership is not disputed!!! Dude please get this clear - the V5 shows nothing more than the entity legally responsible for the vehicle. The van you drive could be owned by you and registered by me for many good reasons.
In the case of non payment of fines - what has that got to do with the vehicle? The only way that a vehicle can be taken is after the courts have issued a warrant of distress or a vehilce clamping order.. But then there has to be ownership to the non-payer of fines.
Besides which what would happen if the vehicle was sold in the middle of all this legal fight? Lets say a company "Motorwise Ltd" didn't pay a fine for its van and then sold it to me... Would it be reasonable for them to seize the van now belonging to me? Of course not.
Of course the money for the sale of the van would now be in Motorwise Ltd accounts but if that company is off shore or stops trading - what happens now??
quote]
Ownership is not disputed!!! Dude please get this clear - the V5 shows nothing more than the entity legally responsible for the vehicle. The van you drive could be owned by you and registered by me for many good reasons.
In the case of non payment of fines - what has that got to do with the vehicle? The only way that a vehicle can be taken is after the courts have issued a warrant of distress or a vehilce clamping order.. But then there has to be ownership to the non-payer of fines.
Besides which what would happen if the vehicle was sold in the middle of all this legal fight? Lets say a company "Motorwise Ltd" didn't pay a fine for its van and then sold it to me... Would it be reasonable for them to seize the van now belonging to me? Of course not.
Of course the money for the sale of the van would now be in Motorwise Ltd accounts but if that company is off shore or stops trading - what happens now??
Just to add some facts
1 A UK regd Ltd Co can act be a Regd Keeeper of a motor vehicle
2 Being regd keeper of a motor vehicle does not confer beneficial ownership. That should be obvious to anyone who is aware that many companies continuously lease cars while being Regd Keepers and the car is never owned by them
3 A UK company does not have to have UK Nationals as directors
4 A UK Company must have a UK address and a Company Secretary. Neither of these need to be a trading address. In fact the Co Sec does not even have to be a human being - it can be another company including a company who provides Co Sec services to literally hundreds of Co's
5 If the company goes into liquidation then unpaid fines become a civil debt which will be paid out of the liquidation of assets if any.
6 I have no idea if DVLA / Police / Scamera conspirators would be petty enough to put a marker against a car in these circumstances but in case of a liquidation, the Ltd Co will cease to exist as a legal entity and it would be up to the real beneficial owner either to take over the regd keepers responsibilities or transfer them to another and notify DVLA of same. In which case the trail stops there.
Hope this helps
1 A UK regd Ltd Co can act be a Regd Keeeper of a motor vehicle
2 Being regd keeper of a motor vehicle does not confer beneficial ownership. That should be obvious to anyone who is aware that many companies continuously lease cars while being Regd Keepers and the car is never owned by them
3 A UK company does not have to have UK Nationals as directors
4 A UK Company must have a UK address and a Company Secretary. Neither of these need to be a trading address. In fact the Co Sec does not even have to be a human being - it can be another company including a company who provides Co Sec services to literally hundreds of Co's
5 If the company goes into liquidation then unpaid fines become a civil debt which will be paid out of the liquidation of assets if any.
6 I have no idea if DVLA / Police / Scamera conspirators would be petty enough to put a marker against a car in these circumstances but in case of a liquidation, the Ltd Co will cease to exist as a legal entity and it would be up to the real beneficial owner either to take over the regd keepers responsibilities or transfer them to another and notify DVLA of same. In which case the trail stops there.
Hope this helps
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