Can they put points on my licence without telling me first!?
Discussion
A strange one this, and although people will have no doubt seen my posts helping others what has happened has astonished me so much that if nothing else if highlighting this stops this happening to someone else then thats all the better.
I received a letter from the DVLA last week telling me that because I did not surrender my driving licence in December when I was due in court in B*********, I would have to send it to the DVLA for endorsement within the next 28 days of my licence would be revoked.
Now, its bad enough having to go to court for such things *if* you have actually done something, but this was the very first I had ever heard of this!?
When I telephoned the number on the letter and explained, I was told that the DVLA would take 'a few weeks' to sort out. So in the meantime I have an additional 3 points on my licence for an MS90 I was convicted for in my absence.
When I phoned the court about it the clerk was very helpful and read out 'my' case file for 'my' conviction. Apparantly Mr X of somewhere up north nowhere near me was flashed by a speed camera. He replied to the paperwork nominating me as the driver on the day, and putting down my address as an address near him (nothing to do with me) - in fact both the DVLA and the court asked if I had ever lived in this address, I have not lived within 50 miles of it.
Of course - I have never met Mr X before in my life, let alone driven his car! What is scary though is that this guy has my name and is using it. My surname is very unique - there are only two males with it so I doubt that it is some kind of mix-up.
But... the upshot of it is, according to the DVLA I am 'convicted' of an MS90 offence - failing to provide driver details, and this is on my licence and the 'enforcement' section of the court I am told will also be looking to chase me for the fine!!!
I am told that the only way for me to sort it will be for me to take a day of work and go to my local court and make a 'statutory declaration' that of course I know nothing about it. I can handle that, I thought if that gets it sorted, but no... I was then told that I would then have to come to court to stand trial for the offence!!! So, basically some months of worry and days taken off work. I explained this and was told that there was 'no other way'.
Has this ever happened to anyone else?
Can anyone shed any more light?
It astonishes me that the court system can be played like this and I can be convicted in my absence from a name given by someone with a false address - of course they would have written to this address and sent the letter to name the driver, and then summons etc - but I obviously never received this as MR X made up an address local to him! So I never have the legal chance to defend myself... it all could have been sorted then. But I am convicted in my absence, and when it comes to 'points and payment' time, they have no problem finding me at my home address on my driving licence straight away!?
I received a letter from the DVLA last week telling me that because I did not surrender my driving licence in December when I was due in court in B*********, I would have to send it to the DVLA for endorsement within the next 28 days of my licence would be revoked.
Now, its bad enough having to go to court for such things *if* you have actually done something, but this was the very first I had ever heard of this!?
When I telephoned the number on the letter and explained, I was told that the DVLA would take 'a few weeks' to sort out. So in the meantime I have an additional 3 points on my licence for an MS90 I was convicted for in my absence.
When I phoned the court about it the clerk was very helpful and read out 'my' case file for 'my' conviction. Apparantly Mr X of somewhere up north nowhere near me was flashed by a speed camera. He replied to the paperwork nominating me as the driver on the day, and putting down my address as an address near him (nothing to do with me) - in fact both the DVLA and the court asked if I had ever lived in this address, I have not lived within 50 miles of it.
Of course - I have never met Mr X before in my life, let alone driven his car! What is scary though is that this guy has my name and is using it. My surname is very unique - there are only two males with it so I doubt that it is some kind of mix-up.
But... the upshot of it is, according to the DVLA I am 'convicted' of an MS90 offence - failing to provide driver details, and this is on my licence and the 'enforcement' section of the court I am told will also be looking to chase me for the fine!!!
I am told that the only way for me to sort it will be for me to take a day of work and go to my local court and make a 'statutory declaration' that of course I know nothing about it. I can handle that, I thought if that gets it sorted, but no... I was then told that I would then have to come to court to stand trial for the offence!!! So, basically some months of worry and days taken off work. I explained this and was told that there was 'no other way'.
Has this ever happened to anyone else?
Can anyone shed any more light?
It astonishes me that the court system can be played like this and I can be convicted in my absence from a name given by someone with a false address - of course they would have written to this address and sent the letter to name the driver, and then summons etc - but I obviously never received this as MR X made up an address local to him! So I never have the legal chance to defend myself... it all could have been sorted then. But I am convicted in my absence, and when it comes to 'points and payment' time, they have no problem finding me at my home address on my driving licence straight away!?
Edited by justinp1 on Tuesday 30th January 10:30
Parrot of Doom said:
If its any consolation, if they can trace the other driver he should be bending over shortly.
This is what I had hoped. The court clerk told me his name and they have his address as registered keeper, although when I aksed for this she was a bit sheepish and would not tell me!
I did say that surely if I have been convicted of driving this guys car, there would be no problem in telling me his address!!??
Whilst I mst say i am not the biggest fan f speed enforcement, the upshot of it is, me as an innocent party is having to take time off work at my expense to sort what this coward could not sort himself...
Perverting the course of justice comes to mind....
Forgive me if I've missed something here - but how did the DVLA trace you to call you, if the address they were using was one miles away, and presumably this other chap didn't have your driving license number (and if he did why didn't they use the address they have for you)???
Sounds odd though - there's definitely a PCoJ charge on it's way somewhere, and given some of the previous convictions that chap could well (bar the current prison issues be looking at a stripey suntan).
How does this affect your insurance in the meantime?? If you've not disclosed it then technically you might not be insured, but disclosing it will ramp up costs. I'd certainly be putting in a civil claim against the chap for EVERTHING UNDER THE SUN.
Sounds odd though - there's definitely a PCoJ charge on it's way somewhere, and given some of the previous convictions that chap could well (bar the current prison issues be looking at a stripey suntan).
How does this affect your insurance in the meantime?? If you've not disclosed it then technically you might not be insured, but disclosing it will ramp up costs. I'd certainly be putting in a civil claim against the chap for EVERTHING UNDER THE SUN.
What's the betting that there is a connection, however tenuous, with Mr X and the false address.
Otherwise mail arriving would be returned to sender would it not? Well it would from our house.
What would they have done if Mr X had said it was a John Smith of .... ?
If you have the details of Mr X I'd suggest a report down the nick with accompanying copies of correspondence. Get wheels moving, get his VRN with a marker on it.
Interested to see where this goes.
Otherwise mail arriving would be returned to sender would it not? Well it would from our house.
What would they have done if Mr X had said it was a John Smith of .... ?
If you have the details of Mr X I'd suggest a report down the nick with accompanying copies of correspondence. Get wheels moving, get his VRN with a marker on it.
Interested to see where this goes.
tigger1 said:
Forgive me if I've missed something here - but how did the DVLA trace you to call you, if the address they were using was one miles away, and presumably this other chap didn't have your driving license number (and if he did why didn't they use the address they have for you)???
Sounds odd though - there's definitely a PCoJ charge on it's way somewhere, and given some of the previous convictions that chap could well (bar the current prison issues be looking at a stripey suntan).
How does this affect your insurance in the meantime?? If you've not disclosed it then technically you might not be insured, but disclosing it will ramp up costs. I'd certainly be putting in a civil claim against the chap for EVERTHING UNDER THE SUN.
Sounds odd though - there's definitely a PCoJ charge on it's way somewhere, and given some of the previous convictions that chap could well (bar the current prison issues be looking at a stripey suntan).
How does this affect your insurance in the meantime?? If you've not disclosed it then technically you might not be insured, but disclosing it will ramp up costs. I'd certainly be putting in a civil claim against the chap for EVERTHING UNDER THE SUN.
This is exactly what I was thinking. At no time was the address given checked to see if I was living there, and of course when I did not reply to numerous letter, a summons and did not come to court, no-one thought to check this... Only when the endorsement details were sent to the DVLA was anything sent to me!
I said exactly the same thing to the clerks, and would understand if my name was Simon Jones or John Smith, but I know for a fact that I am the only person with my name.
The insurance thing is an issue too.
Surely it is not *me* who has been convicted. Just a ficticious person with the same name as me, living at a real, or ficticious address. The only link is that I share the name, and the DVLA have chosen to link it NOW to me and my address?
This is where it is difficult, there are so many ways forward and ramifications, and to be frank I dont need the waste of time or hassle at the moment. I am seriously considering just giving this to a solicitor who can fight the case on my behalf and get his costs picked up. It just seems to be a shame that it would get to that for someone to see sense.
It's not an ideal situation, but if you can afford the interim bills it might be worth just going to a good solicitor and asking them to get on with as little involvement from you as possible. The alternative, I guess, would be to write to the DVLA and the court explaining what you believe has occurred, pointing out the following: -
1) you were not, at any point pre-trial, contacted
2) immediately post-trial the DVLA manage to trace you...
3) you do not know Mr Knob-Rash
4) you have never lived at xxxx
5) You have never driven a car belonging to Mr Knob-Rash
6) The person they have convicted is not you
7) Even if they were trying to convict you, you have not been cautioned, or advise of the actions, therefore have had your right to a fair trial breached.
You talk of doing a stat dec at the court. A solicitor can do this for you for about £8 (you go to their office, swear on your holy book (or not...) of choice, and Roberts your mothers brother. Might be a good plan to go to a solicitor and get them to advise on the letter, including the sworn statement. I have a feeling though that you might be in that line of work, can't remember.
Good luck, and keep us informed.
1) you were not, at any point pre-trial, contacted
2) immediately post-trial the DVLA manage to trace you...
3) you do not know Mr Knob-Rash
4) you have never lived at xxxx
5) You have never driven a car belonging to Mr Knob-Rash
6) The person they have convicted is not you
7) Even if they were trying to convict you, you have not been cautioned, or advise of the actions, therefore have had your right to a fair trial breached.
You talk of doing a stat dec at the court. A solicitor can do this for you for about £8 (you go to their office, swear on your holy book (or not...) of choice, and Roberts your mothers brother. Might be a good plan to go to a solicitor and get them to advise on the letter, including the sworn statement. I have a feeling though that you might be in that line of work, can't remember.
Good luck, and keep us informed.
Parrot of Doom said:
If its any consolation, if they can trace the other driver he should be bending over shortly.
If the the other driver actually exists of course...in the sense that the person who has done this to Justin has a vehicle registered in a ficticious name...
This is an incredible case, and a perfect example of how automated justice is anything but "justice."
justinp1 said:
I am thinking of going down the line of aksing why it is that the DVLA seem to think it is me who has anything to do with this.
Definitely - they've convicted someone with your name at a different address, ergo NOT you. And try not to get into discussions about the 'delay' on their system, although from the sounds of things they've automatically 'assumed' it's you, made the change, and now you've got to suffer their incompetency!
Justice by computer indeed...makes you very scared for the future - imagine if this was more serious and you'd been arrested and jailed for whatever crime the system said you'd done! Out of a job, possibly out of your house, relationship, etc. etc. All because of a bureaucratic cock-up following from some twunt trying to trick the system.
Edit: Just re-read - what 'false 3 points' causing people to get caught under totting-up?!?
Is the system (DVLA computer OR UK Justice) now in the habit of giving people points for the fun of it?
Edited by havoc on Tuesday 30th January 15:20
justinp1 said:
When I spoke to the DVLA I asked them of timescales of when this would get sorted and they were talking about 3, 4 or 5 weeks whilst I am 'convicted'.
She mentioned that the reason that it took so long was that there was a priority system, and the people who had to be prioritised first were ones who had been disqualified through totting up due to the false 3 points, as in the meantime they could not drive as they were technically 'convicted' and thus disqualified!
I am thinking of going down the line of aksing why it is that the DVLA seem to think it is me who has anything to do with this.
So, certainly worth asking them the question "how many cases have their been where people have been given points which have then been challenged as they weren't notified in advance?
Does this mean that (hypothetically) we could all have been given points without realising??
Sounds as though there are a lot of these cases. Maybe it’s the latest scam way to avoid prosecution. Strange I haven’t seen it discussed on PH. I don’t think it’s fair, if there are people in a worse situation to demand to be head of the queue. It seems that it's the driving scammers that are to blame here, not the DVLA.
justinp1 said:
She mentioned that the reason that it took so long was that there was a priority system, and the people who had to be prioritised first were ones who had been disqualified through totting up due to the false 3 points, as in the meantime they could not drive as they were technically 'convicted' and thus disqualified!
So does this suggest that there is a lot of this going on. ie you are prioritised lower than others. I can, however, see the perfect sense in dealing with the "technical" disqualifications, as a stop would result in arrest and into the cells, which might be a tad expensive in the compo stakes.
I can see how they can generate a dummy licence in the case of driving offences by someone who does not have a UK licence ie underage, overseas visitor and so on.
But the whole thing smells fishier than Grimsby docks an a warm Wednesday because they have then linked it to you, even though your address is different from one nominated by Mr X.
Of course the rarity of the name is a significant factor.
But I return to the case of Mr X naming and shaming John Smith. The fact that they have linked to you, suggests that they do try and pin it on a real named driver at some point. Not practical in case of John Smith. Or do they write to all the John Smiths in turn? Nothing would surprise me about DVLA frankly.
So the question I would ask, having had my name used illegally in the past*, is how they react when their search reveals a whole host of names. I bet it just gets left on the file with NFA.
Which is another way of saying, get the people who are easy to trace and will pay up.
* nothing to do afaik with driving, just some git giving my name and address to crumpet he'd picked up for one night stands. God knows why, giving my name that is.
herewego said:
It seems that it's the driving scammers that are to blame here, not the DVLA.
Its not the DVLA's fault I agree, (they did their bit quite well) but its not just the scammers fault either.
Yes he's a tw@ for trying it on, but it is a complete joke that it went to trial, and a conviction was gained against someone without the courts bothering to check that the defendant was a real person or not.
BiggusLaddus said:
Yes he's a tw@ for trying it on, but it is a complete joke that it went to trial, and a conviction was gained against someone without the courts bothering to check that the defendant was a real person or not.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what process is supposed to be followed to ensure that the "Mr X" being tried does actually exist? If it's slack, this could be start of a worrying new trend.
Why clone plates when you can invent or clone identities?
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