Monday 5th February 2007

Experts question Gatso accuracy

Are they good enough to provide legal evidence?

---

Would you trust it with your licence?

A BBC TV local news programme has found there's reason to doubt the accuracy of the Gatso, the workhorse of the Government's speed camera scheme.

"Look East" revealed on Friday that Gatso speed camera calibration procedures raise an anomaly that casts doubt on the evidence from around half of the devices. About half the Gatsos sent off for routine calibration had to be repaired before the calibration process was completed.

This suggests that around half the cameras became faulty at some point during the year before calibration. As road safety campaign Safe Speed pointed out, without knowing when the faults first appeared, any camera affected can't be relied on to provide accurate evidence in court.

This came to light when Sally Chidzoy of BBC TV Look East obtained camera calibration invoices under the Freedom of Information Act. The invoices so far obtained apply to Essex and Hertfordshire cameras. It's likely that a similar situation applies to all Gatso cameras in every area.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign said: "Nothing about the incompetence of speed camera operations surprises me any more, but this particular blunder is certainly of epic proportions.

"This information casts very substantial doubts on the safety of evidence from thousands of cameras used against hundreds of thousands of motorists.

"Confidence in speed cameras is already at rock bottom, but this information will drive it down further. I can only imagine that hundreds of thousands - or even millions - of motorists are going to be asking for their money back."

Tom Magner, a forensic engineer specialising in speed cameras told the BBC that the odds were stacked against the motorist, and that  Gatsos should be calibrated more frequently.

"It's a precision piece of equipment and there's a very tight tolerance on which it is operated in order to be accurate," he said. "So when you're dealing with the sort of speeds you deal with in these particular cases, it's asking a lot of that equipment to operate time and time and time again so accurately.

"I don't think one annual calibration is sufficient. I think every six months at least but every time the camera is used, it should be checked to make sure that it is working properly."

• www.safespeed.org.uk

[hendry]

It does indeed seem odd that a police vehicle or hand held device used to convict a speeding motorist has to have been calibrated at the start and end of the officer's shift, but that a Gatso can stand for up to a year without calibration.

It is just a shame that these things are not thought of BEFORE we all start getting invoices through the post, as surely constant calibration would make the device too expensive to run?

[PhantomPH]

So does that mean that if I get a NIP thru generated by ANY fixed camera, I should be able to ask to see it's calibration certificate? Or even demand it is tested to prove that it's accusation of me speeding, is an accurate one????

P~

[benmac]

I think that part of the issue is that they're being used in a means different to what they were originally put in for. The first Gatsos were set at way above the limit for the road they were on so would only catch the real lunatics. Asking them to get people booked for a few mph over the limit could simply be asking too much of them without more frequent calibration.

[Griffter]

I've seen a cat set a GATSO off. There was no traffic around. As a result I simply don't trust them.

[stenniso]

I remember quite a few years ago I got a parking ticket for overstaying my time limit in a pay and display carpark. As it happened, I knew my ticket was about to expire, so was returning to the car to move it. As I approached the carpark I saw a traffic warden walking out the exit. When I got back to my car, with minutes to spare, I noticed a parking fine attached to the windscreen. The time of issue on the ticket wouldn't even occur for another 10 minutes or so, the wardens ticket machine was clearly not set with the correct time of day, running fast by about 10-15 minutes.

I contested the fine with the local council, asking to see calibration certificates for the ticket machine to establish if the clock in it is checked for the correct time of day. The council grudgingly wrote off the fine.

I guess fairness in applying laws and regulations to motorists doesn't really matter to most authorities.

[DonnyR]

I wonder if "Tom Magner, a forensic engineer specialising in speed cameras" could have an agenda of his own. Any chance he calibrates Gatsos for a living? I don't expect the BBC bimbos would have thought to ask...

[safespeed]

Folks, see this thread:

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=351745&f=10&h=0

Here's a sample dodgy invoice:

[fury1630]

Surely it wouldn't be too expensive / difficult to have an official car with a large speed display in the rear window, run off a calibrated GPS system, drive past all the gatsos at, say, 10mph over the limit (in the wee small hours perhaps, to ensure safety). That would trigger it & any cameras recording a speed other than that shown in the car's rear window would be sent for proper calibration.

The cars could be run by a separate organisation to ensure independance & the public would be re-assured.

Sorry - silly me, for a moment there I thought public confidence & fairness was of conceren here - how daft can you be, tch!

[Nostrils]

Isnt it funny how information like this is not a national news story because it will or does effect millions of drivers in this country - Why oh why is it confined to a local news report!!

On the A217 the other day, the camera went off at 35 in a 40mph, if I get a ticket I will be questioning the accuracy of this machine - But I will question now anyway.

This is daylight robbery and we dont have any MP's shouting for us.....obviously because its not politically correct to stand up for motorists, motorcyclists......Perhaps they think we are not voters!!!

[dingocooke]

Guys 'n Gals,
Sorry to rain on your parade, and I agree with all the comments so far too; but the government really doesn't give a toss about fairness in this; its revenue pure and simple, and the speeders caught with scameras are all easy victims picked off one at a time, in the sure and certain knowledge that 99.9% of motorists caught will just pay up and swallow the 3 points. legitimate motorists are such an easy target, we drive around with our ID back and front, so the slightest indescretion is very easy to process with an automated fine. Meantime, the majority of burglars and dope dealers go about their 'business' completely untouched by the legal system, with the old cry of 'lack of resources' the tired lame excuse of our police force that appears to have given up.

[herewego]

dingocooke said:

Guys 'n Gals,
Sorry to rain on your parade, and I agree with all the comments so far too; but the government really doesn't give a toss about fairness in this; its revenue pure and simple, and the speeders caught with scameras are all easy victims picked off one at a time, in the sure and certain knowledge that 99.9% of motorists caught will just pay up and swallow the 3 points. legitimate motorists are such an easy target, we drive around with our ID back and front, so the slightest indescretion is very easy to process with an automated fine. Meantime, the majority of burglars and dope dealers go about their 'business' completely untouched by the legal system, with the old cry of 'lack of resources' the tired lame excuse of our police force that appears to have given up.

So why do they give points? Why disqualify a cash cow?

[sprinter885]

THIS IS ALL GOOD STUFF ! IS IT THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR SCAMERAS.?

[negative creep]

herewego said:

So why do they give points? Why disqualify a cash cow?

they don't care about that. One less car on the road is a good tihng for them

[justinp1]

fury1630 said:

Surely it wouldn't be too expensive / difficult to have an official car with a large speed display in the rear window, run off a calibrated GPS system, drive past all the gatsos at, say, 10mph over the limit (in the wee small hours perhaps, to ensure safety). That would trigger it & any cameras recording a speed other than that shown in the car's rear window would be sent for proper calibration.

The cars could be run by a separate organisation to ensure independance & the public would be re-assured.

Sorry - silly me, for a moment there I thought public confidence & fairness was of conceren here - how daft can you be, tch!

Ahh, but then we are under that assumption that these machines are calibrated actually using moving vehicles - I would guess that the testing is nominal just to prove the device works under set conditions.

For example, the LTI2020 can be used to convict *handheld* at up to 1000m.

To pass the 'test' each year it has to correctly measure the distance of stationary targets at 20,40,60,80 and 100 metres away.

There used to be a section in the ACPO Code where each device at the start and end of a tour of duty had to be tested on a police vehicle with a calibrated speedo, but not any more! Thus it is quite possible that a device zapping people today, has never, ever, been tested on a moving vehicle to ensure accuracy.

[safespeed]

Nostrils said:

Isnt it funny how information like this is not a national news story because it will or does effect millions of drivers in this country - Why oh why is it confined to a local news report!!

It was in the News of the World yesterday, and today it's in the Metro, the Daily Mail, The Daily Express, The Sun, The Daily Star and the What Car website. At least - there may be more that I don't know about.

[Gixer]

The speed of the vehicle can be confirmed by the calibration lines in the road - thats what they are there for. So as long as you view the photos (if you need to - I think most of us would know if we was/wasn't speeding at the time) there would be no problem

I hate Gatsos as much as anybody else but fail to see how the 'it is out of calibration' argument can work when the photos are there to back it up.....unless of course the time lapse between the 2 photos is out.

[safespeed]

Gixer said:

The speed of the vehicle can be confirmed by the calibration lines in the road - thats what they are there for. So as long as you view the photos (if you need to - I think most of us would know if we was/wasn't speeding at the time) there would be no problem

I hate Gatsos as much as anybody else but fail to see how the 'it is out of calibration' argument can work when the photos are there to back it up.....unless of course the time lapse between the 2 photos is out.

Conviction requires both evidence and corroboration. If the calibration is suspect one or both of 'evidence' and 'corroboration' fails and it's game over.

[cptsideways]

Gixer said:

The speed of the vehicle can be confirmed by the calibration lines in the road - thats what they are there for. So as long as you view the photos (if you need to - I think most of us would know if we was/wasn't speeding at the time) there would be no problem

I hate Gatsos as much as anybody else but fail to see how the 'it is out of calibration' argument can work when the photos are there to back it up.....unless of course the time lapse between the 2 photos is out.

A few of the SCP's now won't issue the two pictures to corrobate the evidence, surely there must be some sort of law that this is breaking by witholding evidence that could prove ones innocence? Any legal types car to comment?

[ylee coyote]

I think this is great discussion
however I also think it needs a wider audience
This item was almost buried in a regional version the programme
I will be e-mailing my MP with a link to this programme ... we need to have a wider discussion
I must say the Mp seemed to have a pretty balanced view but where was that AA man coming from ?
had he been got at by the SCP????

[bluepolarbear]

Gixer said:

The speed of the vehicle can be confirmed by the calibration lines in the road - thats what they are there for. So as long as you view the photos (if you need to - I think most of us would know if we was/wasn't speeding at the time) there would be no problem

I hate Gatsos as much as anybody else but fail to see how the 'it is out of calibration' argument can work when the photos are there to back it up.....unless of course the time lapse between the 2 photos is out.

You answered your own question. With the *actual* time interval between the photo's you can't use them to do anything.