A real problem, especially for the legal supremesists

[fluffnik]

Here's a real driving quandry on a real road posited to resounding silence from the "law is the law" camp in another looooooooong thread which many may no longer be following.

Extra no points for solutions which are both safe and legal...

M8, Glasgow, [url]Eastbound between Infirmary and Cathedral| http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&[/url].

It's a slightly weird junction in that a slip road joins the main cariageway as L4(5??) from the right and subsequently becomes an exit a mile or so down the road.

There is no stop at the yield line option, you either merge with the lane to your left or you go to church...

It is not uncommon for the lane with which you must merge to be travelling at 65-75mph with seperations <<1s despite the limit being 50mph.

So, what do you do?

[mr_annie_vxr]

fluffnik said:

Here's a real driving quandry on a real road posited to resounding silence from the "law is the law" camp in another looooooooong thread which many may no longer be following.

Extra no points for solutions which are both safe and legal...

M8, Glasgow, [url]Eastbound between Infirmary and Cathedral| http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&[/url].

It's a slightly weird junction in that a slip road joins the main cariageway as L4(5??) from the right and subsequently becomes an exit a mile or so down the road.

There is no stop at the yield line option, you either merge with the lane to your left or you go to church...

It is not uncommon for the lane with which you must merge to be travelling at 65-75mph with seperations <<1s despite the limit being 50mph.

So, what do you do?

So your saying the limit on the road your driving is fifty but they are all driving at sixty-five to seventy?


If so then surely a specs camera at that location would keep people at fifty thus making it easier to adjust your speed towards fifty and slot in. That's if everyone obeyed the speed limits how it would work.

I think you may have just made a case for some strict speed enforcement at that location. I would suggest you write a letter to your local SCP and inform them of this and ensure they take action.

[tvrgit]

I know the junction you mean - junction 17-18 right?

I make that movement often, peak and off peak.

Match speed, slot in.

Never had a problem. You do meet the odd pillock who decides not to let you in but you can usually readjust speed to get in 2 cars forward or 2 back.

Unless of course some hammer up lane 4 and expect to get let in right before the other slip in which case they haven't allowed enough space for speed readjustment, so everybody ends up getting all upset and drippy-eyed. They are also pillocks.

[tvrgit]

mr_annie_vxr said:

fluffnik said:

Here's a real driving quandry on a real road posited to resounding silence from the "law is the law" camp in another looooooooong thread which many may no longer be following.

Extra no points for solutions which are both safe and legal...

M8, Glasgow, [url]Eastbound between Infirmary and Cathedral| http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&[/url].

It's a slightly weird junction in that a slip road joins the main cariageway as L4(5??) from the right and subsequently becomes an exit a mile or so down the road.

There is no stop at the yield line option, you either merge with the lane to your left or you go to church...

It is not uncommon for the lane with which you must merge to be travelling at 65-75mph with seperations <<1s despite the limit being 50mph.

So, what do you do?

So your saying the limit on the road your driving is fifty but they are all driving at sixty-five to seventy?


If so then surely a specs camera at that location would keep people at fifty thus making it easier to adjust your speed towards fifty and slot in. That's if everyone obeyed the speed limits how it would work.

I think you may have just made a case for some strict speed enforcement at that location. I would suggest you write a letter to your local SCP and inform them of this and ensure they take action.

At peak times you're lucky if the traffic is doing 30, so finding a slot to move into isn't too hard.

Off-peak, the traffic is going faster because it's not so busy so you can normally find a slot to move into.

[Big Rod]

tvrgit said:

I know the junction you mean - junction 17-18 right?

I make that movement often, peak and off peak.

Match speed, slot in.

Never had a problem. You do meet the odd pillock who decides not to let you in but you can usually readjust speed to get in 2 cars forward or 2 back.

Unless of course some hammer up lane 4 and expect to get let in right before the other slip in which case they haven't allowed enough space for speed readjustment, so everybody ends up getting all upset and drippy-eyed. They are also pillocks.

^^^^^^What he said!!^^^^^^^^

FWIW, I've always thought that's was a bizarre stretch of road. The Eastbound side's the same!!

Edited by Big Rod on Thursday 15th February 09:48

[jith]

fluffnik said:

Here's a real driving quandry on a real road posited to resounding silence from the "law is the law" camp in another looooooooong thread which many may no longer be following.

Extra no points for solutions which are both safe and legal...

M8, Glasgow, [url]Eastbound between Infirmary and Cathedral| http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&[/url].

It's a slightly weird junction in that a slip road joins the main cariageway as L4(5??) from the right and subsequently becomes an exit a mile or so down the road.

There is no stop at the yield line option, you either merge with the lane to your left or you go to church...

It is not uncommon for the lane with which you must merge to be travelling at 65-75mph with seperations <<1s despite the limit being 50mph.

So, what do you do?

Now let's get this totally right.
For the past twenty years or so I have defended drivers, including two police officers, on this section for being prosecuted at 60-70MPH because the limit was set several years ago at 50MPH. It is clearly completely inappropriate and should be 70.
I have gone to ridiculous lengths to both discover who set the limit at this and why, and have it put back to 70MPH. In all the correspondence to every single interested entity I can find, not one of them can or will answer this simple question.
This section of the M8 motorway at the locus fluffnik refers to is actually SIX LANES wide; and he is dead right, the extreme right hand lane starts as an entry slip and terminates some 1.3 miles on as an exit slip.
The temptation for all the jokers is to use this lane as an overtaking lane and wait until the last minute before cutting back into the traffic causing braking and rearward rippling.
This is further compounded by the usual display of lane hoggers in the fifth lane, who blatantly refuse to pull in to let others pass, despite the fact they have FIVE other lanes to use.
So what do the local trafpol do?
They book speeders; not drivers travelling at 90-100MPH, but almost all of them at or below 70.
Now forgive me for perhaps appearing to be a tad cynical, but the prosecution rate for carrying out this kind of practice is obviously collosal, but what does it do to address road safety and the problems associated with this motorway?
Absolutely nothing!
I find it difficult to believe that a road planner could actually think it is acceptable by any standards to place a sixth lane on the right hand side of a motorway that is both an on and off ramp; the danger in such a design is instantly obvious to all but the most myopic.
The constant, blatant and deliberate lack of lane discipline is completely unaddressed by the police and therefore grows like a cancer, those performing it and imposing the misery and danger of it on others with a flourish of disgraceful impunity.
Why is ROAD SAFETY not being addressed?
Why is the speed limit set so low that it CREATES the problem?
Why are the police not badgering the life out of the roads authorities to have this changed?
Why are the police NOT PROSECUTING lane hoggers?
This section carries on from the notorious and disgraceful Kingston Bridge, recognised to be the one of the worst designed in Europe, completely incapable of handling the traffic, even from the day it was built, and slowly sinking into the Clyde due to the wrong construction principles.
What is being done to address these vitally important issues?
Absolutely nothing!

[Big Rod]

Jith,

TBH while it is, as I said earlier, a bizarre piece of road and certainly doesn't promote safety, I don't think it's really the speed limit that's the issue here. It's down to plain and simple bad/inconsiderate driving.

The eejits who won't leave enough room between them and the car in front to put an American Express card and the twonks who won't yield are the culprits here IMO and that's who should be being reprimanded or taught.

I'm sure if that was the case then we'd start to see a real reduction in congestion and blood pressure!!

Oh, and incidentally, the section that's being discussed is four lanes wide, I think you're getting it mixed up with the section near the M80 spur which is five lanes wide.

TBH there's such an inconsistency in that stretch of road with what're slip roads and not. Even though I've been driving on it for twenty years, (sometimes every day for months at a time.), I still have doubts as to which lane I should be in to proceed..

Edited by Big Rod on Thursday 15th February 12:05

[vonhosen]

fluffnik said:

Here's a real driving quandry on a real road posited to resounding silence from the "law is the law" camp in another looooooooong thread which many may no longer be following.

Extra no points for solutions which are both safe and legal...

M8, Glasgow, [url]Eastbound between Infirmary and Cathedral| http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&[/url].

It's a slightly weird junction in that a slip road joins the main cariageway as L4(5??) from the right and subsequently becomes an exit a mile or so down the road.

There is no stop at the yield line option, you either merge with the lane to your left or you go to church...

It is not uncommon for the lane with which you must merge to be travelling at 65-75mph with seperations <<1s despite the limit being 50mph.

So, what do you do?

Place TRUVELO immeadiately before the junction & SPECS over the length of it.

Then let Police officers stop people for poor lane discipline.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 15th February 15:41

[Big Rod]

vonhosen said:

Place TRUVELO immeadiately before the junction & SPECS over the length of it.

Then let Police officers stop people for poor lane discipline.

VH, I'm very familiar with the stretch of road being discussed and believe me scameras wouldn't solve the issue fluffnik has. For all it is a bizarre stretch of road, it's not by any means impassible with some application of common sense. Any difficulties on this stretch of road are almost entirely down to bad and inconsiderate driving not exceeding the posted speed limit. In fact it's seldom possible to travel above the posted 50 limit due to the weight of traffic.

Seeing as you mentioned it though, do Police officers actually do anything about poor lane discipline? I've lost count of how many Traffic Officers ignoring, (in particular), middle laners causing tailbacks. I'm not convinced they're that interested. (And I've seen many guilty of poor lane discipline themselves, but that's another story!!)

Edited by Big Rod on Thursday 15th February 16:33

[vonhosen]

Big Rod said:

vonhosen said:

Place TRUVELO immeadiately before the junction & SPECS over the length of it.

Then let Police officers stop people for poor lane discipline.

VH, I'm very familiar with the stretch of road being discussed and believe me scameras wouldn't solve the issue fluffnik has. For all it is a bizarre stretch of road, it's not by any means impassible with some application of common sense. Any difficulties on this stretch of road are almost entirely down to bad and inconsiderate driving not exceeding the posted speed limit. In fact it's seldom possible to travel above the posted 50 limit due to the weight of traffic.

Seeing as you mentioned it though, do Police officers actually do anything about poor lane discipline? I've lost count of how many Traffic Officers ignoring, (in particular), middle laners causing tailbacks. I'm not convinced they're that interested. (And I've seen many guilty of poor lane discipline themselves, but that's another story!!)

I'm not a trafpol so I don't know how many they stop about it.

The problem is it's not a specific offence, it comes under careless/inconsiderate driving.
That offence isn't a FPN offence, so if they are going to take action it would mean a court hearing.

[fluffnik]

mr_annie_vxr said:

If so then surely a specs camera at that location would keep people at fifty thus making it easier to adjust your speed towards fifty and slot in. That's if everyone obeyed the speed limits how it would work.

Or you could abolish the limit and the junction would continue to work in the mostly smooth and safe manner it currently does.

mr_annie_vxr said:

I think you may have just made a case for some strict speed enforcement at that location. I would suggest you write a letter to your local SCP and inform them of this and ensure they take action.

Nope, they'd just screw up taffic flow like they usually do.

They should go clean hospitals if they want to save lives.

tvrgit said:

At peak times you're lucky if the traffic is doing 30, so finding a slot to move into isn't too hard.

Off-peak, the traffic is going faster because it's not so busy so you can normally find a slot to move into.

I'm always pleasantly surprised by how well that junction works; pehaps setting drivers problems helps them to raise their game...

Traffic speed through that section seems to depend more on how well the M80 and M74 junctions ahead are flowing rather than volume per se.

[fluffnik]

tvrgit said:

I know the junction you mean - junction 17-18 right?

I make that movement often, peak and off peak.

Match speed, slot in.

Never had a problem. You do meet the odd pillock who decides not to let you in but you can usually readjust speed to get in 2 cars forward or 2 back.

I was thinking more of J16/15 Eastbound which tends to flow faster since it's heading out of town but the design is similar ; weird but it works surprisingly well.

tvrgit said:

Unless of course some hammer up lane 4 and expect to get let in right before the other slip in which case they haven't allowed enough space for speed readjustment, so everybody ends up getting all upset and drippy-eyed. They are also pillocks.

I don't think the junction particularly encourages or rewards pillocks - I've seen a few give up and just take the exit.

[fluffnik]

vonhosen said:

fluffnik said:

So, what do you do?

Place TRUVELO immeadiately before the junction & SPECS over the length of it.

Then let Police officers stop people for poor lane discipline.

Exactly how will you do that prior to merging with the lane just to your left?

[fluffnik]

Here's a tiny url that hopefully works better than the long 'un...

[fluffnik]

jith said:

Sensible Stuff about the right junction.

You are sooooooo right, speed is absolutly not the problem on that bit of road.

[fluffnik]

vonhosen said:

The problem is it's not a specific offence, it comes under careless/inconsiderate driving.
That offence isn't a FPN offence, so if they are going to take action it would mean a court hearing.

...or a a flash of blues and a white gloved finger indicating that we drive on the left.

You know, proper policing, not tax collecting.

[jith]

Big Rod said:

Jith,

TBH while it is, as I said earlier, a bizarre piece of road and certainly doesn't promote safety, I don't think it's really the speed limit that's the issue here. It's down to plain and simple bad/inconsiderate driving.

The eejits who won't leave enough room between them and the car in front to put an American Express card and the twonks who won't yield are the culprits here IMO and that's who should be being reprimanded or taught.

I'm sure if that was the case then we'd start to see a real reduction in congestion and blood pressure!!

Oh, and incidentally, the section that's being discussed is four lanes wide, I think you're getting it mixed up with the section near the M80 spur which is five lanes wide.

TBH there's such an inconsistency in that stretch of road with what're slip roads and not. Even though I've been driving on it for twenty years, (sometimes every day for months at a time.), I still have doubts as to which lane I should be in to proceed..

Edited by Big Rod on Thursday 15th February 12:05

Rod I think you are getting your wires crossed a bit.
My point is exactly that the problem is NOT speeding, even although the speed limit is far too low.
Why are the police concentrating solely on speed; it just doesn't work?
The amount of lanes fluctuate from only two coming off the Bridge to six before the M80 slip, I just checked it on Google Earth.
Actually when you look at it on there it becomes glaringly obvious how bad the design and layout is.

[mr_annie_vxr]

The speed limit was the issue of the originating post as that suggested you had to exceed the speed limit to be able to safely enter the road as others are speeding. It was suppoed to show the un-fairness of strict limits. That's why a number of posts have focussed on the speed issue.

[Big Rod]

jith said:

Rod I think you are getting your wires crossed a bit.
My point is exactly that the problem is NOT speeding, even although the speed limit is far too low.
Why are the police concentrating solely on speed; it just doesn't work?
The amount of lanes fluctuate from only two coming off the Bridge to six before the M80 slip, I just checked it on Google Earth.
Actually when you look at it on there it becomes glaringly obvious how bad the design and layout is.

Jith, I think we're both trying to make the same point, just in other words!! Only difference being, I don't necessarily think it needs to be any faster. Well at least through the day! Perhaps an ideal candidate for variable speed restriction.

I think we both know the problem's down to driving etiquette.

Sorry for any confusion.

[Big Rod]

vonhosen said:

The problem is it's not a specific offence, it comes under careless/inconsiderate driving.
That offence isn't a FPN offence, so if they are going to take action it would mean a court hearing.

So I'd be right in saying that they can't be bothered with the paperwork or actually give a damn about what they're meant to then!?!?!?

Kind'a concurs with what I was told by an ex-Traffic Policeman some years ago about choosing their targets for stop checks. 'Always pick the best looking cars 'cos they involve less paperwork!!'

But surely a rap on the knuckles of an MLM might go some way to resolving the biggest problem plaguing British highways!!