Ombudsman says no
Discussion
Bad bad news. Some of you will have seen the thread on my insurance complaint (can't find it any more, sorry, was November time) after my crash on a public day at the Nurburgring. After nearly 5 months, this has now been fully processed, including a decision by the ombudsman.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
muso said:
Bad bad news. Some of you will have seen the thread on my insurance complaint (can't find it any more, sorry, was November time) after my crash on a public day at the Nurburgring. After nearly 5 months, this has now been fully processed, including a decision by the ombudsman.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
let me get this straight...
you crashed on the Ring, and didn't have track insurance... you then try and squirm round it and say the ring is officially a road, but every man and his dog knows it's a track, and you were on there racing.... and your insurance company won't pay you out !!!!!
how unreasonable of them !
Lager lout said:
muso said:
Bad bad news. Some of you will have seen the thread on my insurance complaint (can't find it any more, sorry, was November time) after my crash on a public day at the Nurburgring. After nearly 5 months, this has now been fully processed, including a decision by the ombudsman.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
let me get this straight...
you crashed on the Ring, and didn't have track insurance... you then try and squirm round it and say the ring is officially a road, but every man and his dog knows it's a track, and you were on there racing.... and your insurance company won't pay you out !!!!!
how unreasonable of them !
crawl back under your stone
where in his post does he say he was racing?
and FWIW the ring is a public road, it has speed limits on some sections
Parrot of Doom said:
I don't think he was actually moaning about it. Hes holding his hands up and saying 'fair cop guv'.
yeah, fair enough
but from what i read into his first post, he was trying it on with the insurance company
i've got no problem with that, i just thought i'd act like the majority of self ritious people on here though, kind of blend into the background with all the rest of the goody two shoes who pat themselves on their own backssleep envy said:
Lager lout said:
muso said:
Bad bad news. Some of you will have seen the thread on my insurance complaint (can't find it any more, sorry, was November time) after my crash on a public day at the Nurburgring. After nearly 5 months, this has now been fully processed, including a decision by the ombudsman.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
let me get this straight...
you crashed on the Ring, and didn't have track insurance... you then try and squirm round it and say the ring is officially a road, but every man and his dog knows it's a track, and you were on there racing.... and your insurance company won't pay you out !!!!!
how unreasonable of them !
crawl back under your stone
where in his post does he say he was racing?
and FWIW the ring is a public road, it has speed limits on some sections
he just happened to be on the ring and not racing
yeah, you must get loads of people just pootling around, enjoying the view muso said:
Bad bad news. Some of you will have seen the thread on my insurance complaint (can't find it any more, sorry, was November time) after my crash on a public day at the Nurburgring. After nearly 5 months, this has now been fully processed, including a decision by the ombudsman.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Do you realise that with ombudsmen, the company has to comply with the ruling, but you do not?
Remember that the ombudman is still not 100% unbiased and will still work on behalf of the industry as a whole, as after all it is the industry which funds it!
You still have the option of taking the case to court. I think you have a strong case. I think from memory you have legal assistance cover on your insurance policy? I would use it!
Lager lout said:
he just happened to be on the ring and not racing
yeah, you must get loads of people just pootling around, enjoying the view There speaks a man who has obviously never been to the Nurburgring.
You do infact get a lot of people just pootling around, including full sized coaches, 4x4's.
The nurburgring is a toll road, In the same respect that unresticted autobahn's are still motorways, sure the main attraction is to treat it as a race track, but it's not different to monaco being used as an F1 circuit in reality.
muso said:
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
According to german law this is a public toll road where you must obey ALL german road law, so bollox to the ombudsman..he'd lose here in Germany
Lager lout said:
Parrot of Doom said:
I don't think he was actually moaning about it. Hes holding his hands up and saying 'fair cop guv'.
yeah, fair enough
but from what i read into his first post, he was trying it on with the insurance company
i've got no problem with that, i just thought i'd act like the majority of self ritious people on here though, kind of blend into the background with all the rest of the goody two shoes who pat themselves on their own backsNot just with the insurance company, but the Ombudsman, too!
Well, it was worth a try (or 2 tries)
JMGS4 said:
muso said:
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
According to german law this is a public toll road where you must obey ALL german road law, so bollox to the ombudsman..he'd lose here in Germany
Isn't the designation 'toll road' simply a ploy to allow unhampered access to the circuit to members of the public? I've driven the 'Ring a dozen or so times and always accepted that if I stuffed my car, phoning my insurers would be futile.
Do German insurers pay out for 'Ring accident claims?
IIRC the Ring is (on public days) designated as a one-way, derestricted toll road.
Laws of the road apply - overtaking only on the left, accidents still involve the police, and you get coaches, small hatchbacks, bikes, supercars, all on the road at the same time. If you're involved in an accident being overtaken, and you weren't over to the right of the road, you may be done under German traffic law - hardly a racetrack situation.
I'd be tempted (financially permitting) to challenge the ombudsman ruling - the designation of the road is in its use, not its construction.
Laws of the road apply - overtaking only on the left, accidents still involve the police, and you get coaches, small hatchbacks, bikes, supercars, all on the road at the same time. If you're involved in an accident being overtaken, and you weren't over to the right of the road, you may be done under German traffic law - hardly a racetrack situation.
I'd be tempted (financially permitting) to challenge the ombudsman ruling - the designation of the road is in its use, not its construction.
justinp1 said:
muso said:
Bad bad news. Some of you will have seen the thread on my insurance complaint (can't find it any more, sorry, was November time) after my crash on a public day at the Nurburgring. After nearly 5 months, this has now been fully processed, including a decision by the ombudsman.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Basically, it turns out that I should have known better. The ombudsman has noted that the Ring is a circuit and that my policy excludes circuits. All my arguments about public roads and laws and going from Adenau to Nurburg on it are invalid.
So, no money for me. Thanks to all of you though for support and those who bought bits of the old car, a porsche 968CS. You truly have helped me get back in the driving seat where mere insurance could not. On Saturday I picked up my new (actually quite old) 944 racecar which I will be racing in Class 3 of Porsche Club this year. Maybe it's not all bad after all.
Do you realise that with ombudsmen, the company has to comply with the ruling, but you do not?
Remember that the ombudman is still not 100% unbiased and will still work on behalf of the industry as a whole, as after all it is the industry which funds it!
You still have the option of taking the case to court. I think you have a strong case. I think from memory you have legal assistance cover on your insurance policy? I would use it!
I would concur absolutely with that.
As time goes on insurance companies become increasingly devious in order to avoid paying out on claims.
The ombudsman works for the insurance companies, not you.
The road in question is 100% a public road; they cannot possibly defend their actions based on their own assertion that it is not.
Sue them.
puffpuff said:
Do German insurers pay out for 'Ring accident claims?
YES! as it is a normal road, albeit a toll road, thus insurances MUST pay out on it. The only time when they won't pay out is when it is closed for a race and not available to the general public! I'm assuming you do mean the Nordschleife? and not the GP circuit?!?!?! GP circuit is NOT covered as you cannot pay a toll to get on there, you can only get on it as part of a trackday or equivalent!
PS you should NEVER mention the Nordschleife on a claim, just the german road designation whatever it is (the K1256 or so), it IS marked!!I'll try and find it for you.
Edited by JMGS4 on Wednesday 7th March 08:54
As I posted on the original thread - I'm sure I've read somewhere that the 'ring' is specifically excluded on some policies because it is deemed to be a racetrack even though legally it is a toll road.
Question to ask I suppose is - If you trailered your car there, unloaded it and drove it would you need 'Road' Insurance and a licence? I suspect the answer is yes in both cases making it very much a public highway.
IANAL, but without a specific exclusion in your policy I would suspect the ombudsman is 'looking after' the interests of his paymaster. Independant legal advice might be worth seeking.
BB
Question to ask I suppose is - If you trailered your car there, unloaded it and drove it would you need 'Road' Insurance and a licence? I suspect the answer is yes in both cases making it very much a public highway.
IANAL, but without a specific exclusion in your policy I would suspect the ombudsman is 'looking after' the interests of his paymaster. Independant legal advice might be worth seeking.
BB
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff