Cameras help spot risky drivers before they crash
Discussion
... according to an article in the Independent the other day - see here. According to the article
I'm not quite sure what to make of it, other than that most UK motorists I know hate speed cameras with a vengeance and that whilst I can see his point of view I struggle to see anything there that changes my opinion about the 'benefits' of cameras.
For example it says
But, hey, hes a professor so what do I know
There was also an article from Paul Smith the week before here with the title "Cameras trigger poor driving... but there is hope" which (unsurprisingly) takes a completely opposite view.
Let the debate begin
independent said:
most UK motorists support speed cameras.
and independent said:
The author is professor of transport psychology at Napier University's Transport Research Institute in Edinburgh, where he conducts research on car dependence and crash magnets
I'm not quite sure what to make of it, other than that most UK motorists I know hate speed cameras with a vengeance and that whilst I can see his point of view I struggle to see anything there that changes my opinion about the 'benefits' of cameras.
For example it says
independent said:
A 1 per cent increase in speed is associated with a 2 per cent increase in the injury crash rate, a 3 per cent increase in the severe crash rate and a 4 per cent increase in the fatal crash rate. From 30mph to 35mph is a 17 per cent increase
So, if I increase my speed by 50% from 30mph to 45mph am I really doubling my chances of having an accident and quadrupling my chances of being killed ? And from what , almost zero to twice (or four times) almost zero ? But, hey, hes a professor so what do I know
There was also an article from Paul Smith the week before here with the title "Cameras trigger poor driving... but there is hope" which (unsurprisingly) takes a completely opposite view.
Let the debate begin
If you read the link
At least he has bothered to do some research...
our survey said:
Contrary to Paul Smith's recent argument in these pages ("Cameras trigger poor driving ... but there is hope", 20 February) most UK motorists support speed cameras. In Scotland, for example, where he lives and I work, in one of our recent studies, 92 per cent of drivers agreed that "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents", 83 per cent that "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties", and overall, only 17 per cent said they were against speed cameras.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
At least he has bothered to do some research...
Bing o said:
If you read the link
At least he has bothered to do some research...
our survey said:
Contrary to Paul Smith's recent argument in these pages ("Cameras trigger poor driving ... but there is hope", 20 February) most UK motorists support speed cameras. In Scotland, for example, where he lives and I work, in one of our recent studies, 92 per cent of drivers agreed that "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents", 83 per cent that "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties", and overall, only 17 per cent said they were against speed cameras.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
At least he has bothered to do some research...
Who took part in the survey and what were the questions...?
I don't know, it's not quoted in the article, and obviously you have to look at sample sizes and staistical relevance etc etc, but its a bit harsh to slate it off hand without even reading it just because it doesn't toe the party line on PH - I'd like to think that unlike the governemnt we PHers may be able to take on board different points of view and debate the various merits rather than going "that's wrong" off hand
Bing o said:
I don't know, it's not quoted in the article, and obviously you have to look at sample sizes and staistical relevance etc etc, but its a bit harsh to slate it off hand without even reading it just because it doesn't toe the party line on PH - I'd like to think that unlike the governemnt we PHers may be able to take on board different points of view and debate the various merits rather than going "that's wrong" off hand
I didn't slate it,you can't take things at face value anymore.Have you noticed that whenever a "survey" is done then it tends to agree with the views of the organisation that commissioned it? and when you question it you get the old "The debate is over" etc....or "We must be right 'cos our survey says..."
Einion Yrth said:
survey said:
the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties
Presupposes, erroneously, that cameras reduce casualties. .
Problem is that for press purposes SCPs publish figures that make them look good - not like for like.Every ad i see reminds me of the publicity rivalry between certain supermarkets over prices.
Is it their job to promote road safety -or protect their empire ??
esselte said:
Bing o said:
If you read the link
At least he has bothered to do some research...
our survey said:
Contrary to Paul Smith's recent argument in these pages ("Cameras trigger poor driving ... but there is hope", 20 February) most UK motorists support speed cameras. In Scotland, for example, where he lives and I work, in one of our recent studies, 92 per cent of drivers agreed that "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents", 83 per cent that "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties", and overall, only 17 per cent said they were against speed cameras.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
At least he has bothered to do some research...
Who took part in the survey and what were the questions...?
I was just about to ask the same question. Most likely his staff were the participants in the research
Edited for stupidity
Edited by mattyb123 on Thursday 8th March 19:26
Parrot of Doom said:
I know what the questions were:
1) Speed cameras reduce accidents and save lives. Do you support the use of speed cameras?
etc.
1) Speed cameras reduce accidents and save lives. Do you support the use of speed cameras?
etc.
It doesn't matter what the questions were. Argumentum ad Populum is a logical fallacy. It matters not one jot what the majority of people believe, only the evidence counts.
Bing o said:
If you read the link
At least he has bothered to do some research...
our survey said:
Contrary to Paul Smith's recent argument in these pages ("Cameras trigger poor driving ... but there is hope", 20 February) most UK motorists support speed cameras. In Scotland, for example, where he lives and I work, in one of our recent studies, 92 per cent of drivers agreed that "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents", 83 per cent that "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties", and overall, only 17 per cent said they were against speed cameras.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
At least he has bothered to do some research...
But the number of tickets issued for excceeding the 30 mph has not fallen at all. It has increased .
So if the number exceeding speed limit has really fallen - then it would seem logical to expect same drop in fines. But this does not seem to happen. Unless they are pinging at 33 mph as Lancs used to before revising the Speed Course criteria...
But we only have the results of two results of this survey . which would have been loaded und directional questions - und when Manchester introduced their pratnership.. the Manchester press which was generally "supportive" published the results of a survey in November 2003 which gave resutl that 75% of Mancunians were in favour und "supported" the speed camera. The Manchester paper at the time published that those pariticipating in this survey were drawn from a regular list of persons regualarly invited to take part in these polls
A true statistical strata should be completely random .. with a decision to select every one in so many of the poll's "population" else you get a "skewed" result. To verify this "survey"'s "findings" :roll: - we need to know just exactly the selectiion criteria und the questions asked. We followed one link from a student on Paul's site. The young man was writing his final year thesis on the effect of scameras. Mad Doc und self normally help students. We did not this time as the questions were not really worded in such a way as to get balanced spread of opinion.
Bing o said:
If you read the link
At least he has bothered to do some research...
our survey said:
Contrary to Paul Smith's recent argument in these pages ("Cameras trigger poor driving ... but there is hope", 20 February) most UK motorists support speed cameras. In Scotland, for example, where he lives and I work, in one of our recent studies, 92 per cent of drivers agreed that "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents", 83 per cent that "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties", and overall, only 17 per cent said they were against speed cameras.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
At least he has bothered to do some research...
It does of course depend on what the questions are. Lets take the "Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." " well I am to an extent, mainly due to the number of cameras, and partly due to a wish to economise on fuel consumption!
chrisgr31 said:
It does of course depend on what the questions are. Lets take the "Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed."
Well, that statement does sort of apply to me - but that doesn't say anything about compliance to any and all limits!
big rod said:
Parrot of Doom said:
I know what the questions were:
1) Speed cameras reduce accidents and save lives. Do you support the use of speed cameras?
etc.
1) Speed cameras reduce accidents and save lives. Do you support the use of speed cameras?
etc.
Yup! Agree with you there Parrot. I bat all the questions were loaded.
Although we should bear in mind that he is university professor of transport psychology and unlikely to want to undermine his position with biased research.
Bing o said:
If you read the link
At least he has bothered to do some research...
our survey said:
Contrary to Paul Smith's recent argument in these pages ("Cameras trigger poor driving ... but there is hope", 20 February) most UK motorists support speed cameras. In Scotland, for example, where he lives and I work, in one of our recent studies, 92 per cent of drivers agreed that "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents", 83 per cent that "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties", and overall, only 17 per cent said they were against speed cameras.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
Attitudes to speeding seem to be changing. Half of the drivers (51 per cent) said, "At the moment, I am making an effort to reduce my driving speed." DfT figures show that the proportion of cars exceeding the limit on 30mph roads has decreased from 66 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent in 2005 and the proportion exceeding the 30mph limit by 5mph fell from a third (32 per cent) to a fifth (21 per cent). That's a lot of slowing down in town going on.
At least he has bothered to do some research...
The Indy says: most UK motorists support speed cameras.
The survey said: "keeping within the speed limits is important in reducing accidents",
And then said: "the use of cameras should be supported as a method of reducing casualties"
Or, put another way....
Local Rag says: All professors are biased
Because the survey says: "most PHs feel that generaly people will have an inate natural bias"
and then says: "All professors are people"
Ergo: All professors are biased.
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