Paperwork in the police
Discussion
Having a discussion with someone on other forum about paperwork in the police, and how it prevents the rank and file being out on the street.
I blamed the current government, and it's propensity for league tables and paperwork - and he has countered with the fact that the Tories introduced PACE.
Any one with a decent counter argument - especially BiB who served under both governments?!
TIA
I blamed the current government, and it's propensity for league tables and paperwork - and he has countered with the fact that the Tories introduced PACE.
Any one with a decent counter argument - especially BiB who served under both governments?!
TIA
My own view is that things have gone into decline because the Senior Officers have accepted all the garbage that HMG of either party have brought in without a fight.
I was in when PACE was brought in with the promise of more staff for Custody suites which never materialised. We trialled it and numerous reports were put in from the ground floor on the amount of paperwork it generated, to no avail.
Dare I say it would never have happened in the days of CC Alex Muir (Co Durham), Ralph Davidson (Cleveland), Col Jackie Chaytor (North Riding). They were real Chiefs and willing to take on HMG. They believed in putting men out on the streets not coocooned in offices ticking boxes.
dvd
I was in when PACE was brought in with the promise of more staff for Custody suites which never materialised. We trialled it and numerous reports were put in from the ground floor on the amount of paperwork it generated, to no avail.
Dare I say it would never have happened in the days of CC Alex Muir (Co Durham), Ralph Davidson (Cleveland), Col Jackie Chaytor (North Riding). They were real Chiefs and willing to take on HMG. They believed in putting men out on the streets not coocooned in offices ticking boxes.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
My own view is that things have gone into decline because the Senior Officers have accepted all the garbage that HMG of either party have brought in without a fight.
I was in when PACE was brought in with the promise of more staff for Custody suites which never materialised. We trialled it and numerous reports were put in from the ground floor on the amount of paperwork it generated, to no avail.
Dare I say it would never have happened in the days of CC Alex Muir (Co Durham), Ralph Davidson (Cleveland), Col Jackie Chaytor (North Riding). They were real Chiefs and willing to take on HMG. They believed in putting men out on the streets not coocooned in offices ticking boxes.
dvd
I was in when PACE was brought in with the promise of more staff for Custody suites which never materialised. We trialled it and numerous reports were put in from the ground floor on the amount of paperwork it generated, to no avail.
Dare I say it would never have happened in the days of CC Alex Muir (Co Durham), Ralph Davidson (Cleveland), Col Jackie Chaytor (North Riding). They were real Chiefs and willing to take on HMG. They believed in putting men out on the streets not coocooned in offices ticking boxes.
dvd
And let's not forget David (the Hammer)McNee in Strathclyde. A man of true integrity and grit.
I have served since 1980.
In those days a simple case comprised about 4 sides of A4
Now that would just be your disclosure schedule.
In my opinion the paperwork has increased steadily under all governments.
There is a bureaucracy taskforce somewhere I believe looking at the problem.
I await their report(s) with interest.
In those days a simple case comprised about 4 sides of A4
Now that would just be your disclosure schedule.
In my opinion the paperwork has increased steadily under all governments.
There is a bureaucracy taskforce somewhere I believe looking at the problem.
I await their report(s) with interest.
puggit said:
Having a discussion with someone on other forum about paperwork in the police, and how it prevents the rank and file being out on the street.
I blamed the current government, and it's propensity for league tables and paperwork - and he has countered with the fact that the Tories introduced PACE.
Any one with a decent counter argument - especially BiB who served under both governments?!
TIA
I blamed the current government, and it's propensity for league tables and paperwork - and he has countered with the fact that the Tories introduced PACE.
Any one with a decent counter argument - especially BiB who served under both governments?!
TIA
just like a hell of a lot of people on this forum do for just about everything, whether it's the fault of the government or not
Edited by Adolf on Monday 12th March 19:20
chrispy porker said:
Adolf...
...Oh, and what ever happens the Police are always wrong.
...Oh, and what ever happens the Police are always wrong.
Edited by chrispy porker on Monday 12th March 19:27
Perhaps thats why they need so much paperwork to cover their asses...
Tongue out of cheek...
Seriously though, its not the fault of PACE/Police/Govt but more of the change in society. For better or worse we have such a litigious society where we are bombarded by adverts inviting you for free to sue your employer, the government, or anyone else. We have also had numerous cases over the last decade or two of highly public and embarrassing cases with large compensation payouts for obtaining evidence under duress, people dying in custody etc and thus the push is of course to 'cover our collective asses'.
I believe where the proverbial really has hit the fan is where not only do these standards have to be maintained for important cases, and even for petty criminals but there is a mountain of new procedures just there in order to legally catch someone speeding - something which must make up a large proportion of all 'crimes' each year.
justinp1 said:
We have also had numerous cases over the last decade or two of highly public and embarrassing cases with large compensation payouts for obtaining evidence under duress, people dying in custody etc and thus the push is of course to 'cover our collective asses'.
Wouldn't it be nice if the extra checks and paperwork helped avoid these problems (and mis-trials) rather than just cover everyones asses for when they do?
I'll stop dreaming and return to planet Earth in a few minutes
Adolf said:
puggit said:
Having a discussion with someone on other forum about paperwork in the police, and how it prevents the rank and file being out on the street.
I blamed the current government, and it's propensity for league tables and paperwork - and he has countered with the fact that the Tories introduced PACE.
Any one with a decent counter argument - especially BiB who served under both governments?!
TIA
I blamed the current government, and it's propensity for league tables and paperwork - and he has countered with the fact that the Tories introduced PACE.
Any one with a decent counter argument - especially BiB who served under both governments?!
TIA
just like a hell of a lot of people on this forum do for just about everything, whether it's the fault of the government or not
A political party gets into power by promising to make everything better whilst insisting that anyone else's ideas for same are rubbish.
Once in power, the Government spends a huge amount of time and effort explaining why what they're doing is flawlessly beneficial.
When seeking to retain power through reelection, the Government tell us what a fine job they've done, how every iota of improvement in people's lives is down to Government efforts, and how life will be even better if only we'd give them the chance to carry on with their brilliant work.
When a small group of people so aggressively seek power, so arrogantly claim credit for anything that happens to go well, and so shamelessly run from taking responsibility when something goes wrong, is it any wonder that the public actually have the temerity to hold them accountable?
An example of this paperwork thing. Wasting time of the police by David Copperfield talks about it in depth but this is what I had today.
CID jail two guys for serious assault. (GBH in Englandshire)
Bags of evidence two good witnesses who know the bad boys.
1 Crime report = 30mins
2 CID report = 20mins
3 8 statements. = 2 hrs
4 1 police report to PF = 2hrs
5 Intelligene report = 30mins
6 Lab report = 20mins
7 Noteboof entries = 20 mins
8 SCRO report = 30mins
9 Recording evidence = 45mins
10 Taped interviews = 2hrs
11 Getting SOCO out = 3hrs
12 Ancillary stuff (driving about to places waiting for doctors) = 4hrs
All for one serious assault people!
I dealt with (myself) that night. 4 robberies, 1 suicide, 1 serious assault, 1 domestic assault, 3 warnings, 2 trace witnesses for PF, answered 58 e mails, read 147 e mails (58 were for me the rest was junk, read 4 different briefing notes, phoned thewife to say goodnight to my children, went to the toilet twice, no dinner, ate 2 mars bars and drank 5 cups of coffee all supposedly in an 8 hour shift.!
You do the math.
CID jail two guys for serious assault. (GBH in Englandshire)
Bags of evidence two good witnesses who know the bad boys.
1 Crime report = 30mins
2 CID report = 20mins
3 8 statements. = 2 hrs
4 1 police report to PF = 2hrs
5 Intelligene report = 30mins
6 Lab report = 20mins
7 Noteboof entries = 20 mins
8 SCRO report = 30mins
9 Recording evidence = 45mins
10 Taped interviews = 2hrs
11 Getting SOCO out = 3hrs
12 Ancillary stuff (driving about to places waiting for doctors) = 4hrs
All for one serious assault people!
I dealt with (myself) that night. 4 robberies, 1 suicide, 1 serious assault, 1 domestic assault, 3 warnings, 2 trace witnesses for PF, answered 58 e mails, read 147 e mails (58 were for me the rest was junk, read 4 different briefing notes, phoned thewife to say goodnight to my children, went to the toilet twice, no dinner, ate 2 mars bars and drank 5 cups of coffee all supposedly in an 8 hour shift.!
You do the math.
"I have served since 1980.
In those days a simple case comprised about 4 sides of A4
Now that would just be your disclosure schedule.
In my opinion the paperwork has increased steadily under all governments.
There is a bureaucracy taskforce somewhere I believe looking at the problem.
I await their report(s) with interest."
If you are filling in a disclosure schedule for a simple guilty plea file you are filling out forms for no reason, they are simply not required.
The main extra work for the police has came from the national crime recording standard. It means if Joe Bloggs says-
"I have been assaulted officer but i dont want to report it and i dont want any action taken by the police"
We still have to record a crime and make enquiries to get a detection all in the name of figures for the government. Time wasted! does the offender get punished -NO Does the victim want him punished - NO. Does the simple fact that the crime is now detected make a difference to anyone - NO. It only makes a difference to poxy figures and the fact that one of my cops probably spent a few hours chasing it up.
Total madness!
And these incidents are not rare I see them almost every day.
In those days a simple case comprised about 4 sides of A4
Now that would just be your disclosure schedule.
In my opinion the paperwork has increased steadily under all governments.
There is a bureaucracy taskforce somewhere I believe looking at the problem.
I await their report(s) with interest."
If you are filling in a disclosure schedule for a simple guilty plea file you are filling out forms for no reason, they are simply not required.
The main extra work for the police has came from the national crime recording standard. It means if Joe Bloggs says-
"I have been assaulted officer but i dont want to report it and i dont want any action taken by the police"
We still have to record a crime and make enquiries to get a detection all in the name of figures for the government. Time wasted! does the offender get punished -NO Does the victim want him punished - NO. Does the simple fact that the crime is now detected make a difference to anyone - NO. It only makes a difference to poxy figures and the fact that one of my cops probably spent a few hours chasing it up.
Total madness!
And these incidents are not rare I see them almost every day.
An example of this paperwork thing. Wasting time of the police by David Copperfield talks about it in depth but this is what I had today.
CID jail two guys for serious assault. (GBH in Englandshire)
Bags of evidence two good witnesses who know the bad boys.
1 Crime report = 30mins ( NO WAY SHOULD TAKE 30 MINS)
2 CID report = 20mins (WHAT THE HELLS A CID REPORT)
3 8 statements. = 2 hrs (IF YOU CAN TAKE 8 STATEMENTS IN 2 HRS THEY WILL BE OF CRAP QUALITY, 2 HOURS FOR ONE GOOD QUALITY STATEMENT IS MORE LIKE IT)
4 1 police report to PF = 2hrs (WHATS ONE OF THESE)
5 Intelligene report = 30mins (MORE LIKE 5 TO 10 MINS)
6 Lab report = 20mins
7 Noteboof entries = 20 mins (IF YOU ARE WRITING A STATEMENT NO NEED TO DUPLICTE IT IN YOUR NOTEBOOK)
8 SCRO report = 30mins (WHATS AN SCRO REPORT)
9 Recording evidence = 45mins
10 Taped interviews = 2hrs (2HR INTERVIEW??? ABOUT ONE ASSAULT ? MMM?)
11 Getting SOCO out = 3hrs (COULDNT FIND A MARK IN A GERMAN BANK)
12 Ancillary stuff (driving about to places waiting for doctors) = 4hrs
All for one serious assault people!
CID jail two guys for serious assault. (GBH in Englandshire)
Bags of evidence two good witnesses who know the bad boys.
1 Crime report = 30mins ( NO WAY SHOULD TAKE 30 MINS)
2 CID report = 20mins (WHAT THE HELLS A CID REPORT)
3 8 statements. = 2 hrs (IF YOU CAN TAKE 8 STATEMENTS IN 2 HRS THEY WILL BE OF CRAP QUALITY, 2 HOURS FOR ONE GOOD QUALITY STATEMENT IS MORE LIKE IT)
4 1 police report to PF = 2hrs (WHATS ONE OF THESE)
5 Intelligene report = 30mins (MORE LIKE 5 TO 10 MINS)
6 Lab report = 20mins
7 Noteboof entries = 20 mins (IF YOU ARE WRITING A STATEMENT NO NEED TO DUPLICTE IT IN YOUR NOTEBOOK)
8 SCRO report = 30mins (WHATS AN SCRO REPORT)
9 Recording evidence = 45mins
10 Taped interviews = 2hrs (2HR INTERVIEW??? ABOUT ONE ASSAULT ? MMM?)
11 Getting SOCO out = 3hrs (COULDNT FIND A MARK IN A GERMAN BANK)
12 Ancillary stuff (driving about to places waiting for doctors) = 4hrs
All for one serious assault people!
A lot of time is wasted doing work for CPS and defence that should not be the remit of officers.
A lot of time is wasted by the fact that CPS will not prosecute a case unless the officers concerned have completed every scrap of available evidence leading to a 120% proability of winning the case at court. Mostly in triplicate!
A lot of time is wasted waiting for interpreters, lawyers, appropriate adults, doctors and uncle Tom Cobbly and all when suspects are brought into custody.
Most people who are brought into custody become ill within minutes of passing throught the door and require medical attention.
Then there are the bean counting exercises that are required to satiate the appetite of the Home Office and senior management.
A lot of time is wasted by the fact that CPS will not prosecute a case unless the officers concerned have completed every scrap of available evidence leading to a 120% proability of winning the case at court. Mostly in triplicate!
A lot of time is wasted waiting for interpreters, lawyers, appropriate adults, doctors and uncle Tom Cobbly and all when suspects are brought into custody.
Most people who are brought into custody become ill within minutes of passing throught the door and require medical attention.
Then there are the bean counting exercises that are required to satiate the appetite of the Home Office and senior management.
I feel the CPS probably deserve a lot of the criticism the Police actually get.
On two recent court visits (relating to the same matter), the CPS have only divulged parts of their evidence literally 5 minutes before the hearing is due to take place. I haven't had the cash to keep adjurning magistrates hearings before being commited to Crown Court (at which point I became eligible for Legal Aid).
It's either been mismanagement on behalf of the CPS, or they've made a deliberate attempt to lessen my chance of lenience from a judge at a later date.
On two recent court visits (relating to the same matter), the CPS have only divulged parts of their evidence literally 5 minutes before the hearing is due to take place. I haven't had the cash to keep adjurning magistrates hearings before being commited to Crown Court (at which point I became eligible for Legal Aid).
It's either been mismanagement on behalf of the CPS, or they've made a deliberate attempt to lessen my chance of lenience from a judge at a later date.
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