Parking ticket aggrievance
Discussion
Could do with a bit of advice on this one, chaps...
I've just had a letter through the post saying that I've got a £60 fine for over-extending my welcome in a roadside parking spot in town last month. I've got a couple of problems with this, though:
* No notice of this was stuck on the windscreen at the time, so I had no way to check there and then whether the ticket had expired
* The letter I've now got's demanding £60 - up from the discounted £30 I would've been charged if I'd paid it in the previous month (which I couldn't, because I'd not been told about it)
Now, I'm a person of fairly high principles - if I'd not put enough money in the meter and had a ticket when I got back to the car, I'd have checked the time-stamp, shrugged my shoulders, and paid the fine. If the fixed penalty fee was always £60, I'd have done the same. It's not about the money - it'd have served me right.
But I have no way of telling whether that's the case - it was over a month ago in a fairly regular spot to park in town; I can't for the life of me remember what I was there for/how long I was/etc! I'm assuming they legally have to tell me at the time (i.e. gunk up my windscreen with the notice). But they didn't. Which would make me question whether the details on it are also accurate or not (I don't dispute I was probably parking there, the registration number's right, etc - but who's to say as to when the ticket expired/the time I returned).
Having such principles, I fear, is about to get me into a bit of trouble, as I can't bring myself to either just accept guilt for something I have no idea about, or to pay twice the usual fee because somebody's not done there job properly. I have an unfortunate character trait whereby I'll escalate and escalate this without ever accepting the easy "get out" if it feels injust.
Am I being really, really stupid and irrational in doing this? Or should I stick up for my principles? Could do with some advice here as I've got a feeling my sense of right and wrong is about to land me in a whole heap of bother...
I've just had a letter through the post saying that I've got a £60 fine for over-extending my welcome in a roadside parking spot in town last month. I've got a couple of problems with this, though:
* No notice of this was stuck on the windscreen at the time, so I had no way to check there and then whether the ticket had expired
* The letter I've now got's demanding £60 - up from the discounted £30 I would've been charged if I'd paid it in the previous month (which I couldn't, because I'd not been told about it)
Now, I'm a person of fairly high principles - if I'd not put enough money in the meter and had a ticket when I got back to the car, I'd have checked the time-stamp, shrugged my shoulders, and paid the fine. If the fixed penalty fee was always £60, I'd have done the same. It's not about the money - it'd have served me right.
But I have no way of telling whether that's the case - it was over a month ago in a fairly regular spot to park in town; I can't for the life of me remember what I was there for/how long I was/etc! I'm assuming they legally have to tell me at the time (i.e. gunk up my windscreen with the notice). But they didn't. Which would make me question whether the details on it are also accurate or not (I don't dispute I was probably parking there, the registration number's right, etc - but who's to say as to when the ticket expired/the time I returned).
Having such principles, I fear, is about to get me into a bit of trouble, as I can't bring myself to either just accept guilt for something I have no idea about, or to pay twice the usual fee because somebody's not done there job properly. I have an unfortunate character trait whereby I'll escalate and escalate this without ever accepting the easy "get out" if it feels injust.
Am I being really, really stupid and irrational in doing this? Or should I stick up for my principles? Could do with some advice here as I've got a feeling my sense of right and wrong is about to land me in a whole heap of bother...
Cheers. Derby town/city centre, public road, no CCTV I know of - but would be great to know if there was something covering that street (it's a little bit out of the way of the main areas they'd put cameras).
Would prefer the fine to drop back to £30 to show some sense of rationality. The problem is, I'd still have an issue with accepting guilt for something I don't know I did wrong!
Would prefer the fine to drop back to £30 to show some sense of rationality. The problem is, I'd still have an issue with accepting guilt for something I don't know I did wrong!
"No notice of this was stuck on the windscreen at the time, so I had no way to check there and then whether the ticket had expired"
Will check but I think they cannot do anything if they don't issue a ticket. Heard somewhere that even if they are writing a ticket, and they are just about to put it on your windscreen, you can drive off before they have put it on there and they cannot do anything.
Will check but I think they cannot do anything if they don't issue a ticket. Heard somewhere that even if they are writing a ticket, and they are just about to put it on your windscreen, you can drive off before they have put it on there and they cannot do anything.
Lord-Flasheart said:
"No notice of this was stuck on the windscreen at the time, so I had no way to check there and then whether the ticket had expired"
Will check but I think they cannot do anything if they don't issue a ticket. Heard somewhere that even if they are writing a ticket, and they are just about to put it on your windscreen, you can drive off before they have put it on there and they cannot do anything.
Will check but I think they cannot do anything if they don't issue a ticket. Heard somewhere that even if they are writing a ticket, and they are just about to put it on your windscreen, you can drive off before they have put it on there and they cannot do anything.
I'm just a bit worried of them replying "A likely story - we've heard it a thousand times before". I am seriously hoping there are CCTV cameras around there, though - I'd certainly not have missed a big yellow sticker on the front of the Tiv!
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
tvrgit said:
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
I'll be annoyed if somebody else ripped it off afterwards (especially as they could have done that themselves if they were feeling particularly vindictive). There were definitely no trace lines left from glue, etc. though - I'd spot such things on my P&J!
Derby CC has recently gone over to useing council wardens as opposed to the police variety.Issue of tickets has sky rocketed got an appeal in on one myself (non visible T bar and obscured lines)These new revenue collectors all have a digital camera and record position and time on shots.I would therefore request a copy of your photo. Good luck
tvrgit said:
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
Sorry but this is an oft quoted myth. Writing the ticket out and supporting that in some way with evidence, photographic (like the wardens in Brighton and Hove) or with mere comments on the rear of the ticket is sufficient. The fact that a ticket was not affixed to the vehicle when the driver returned to it is required to be proven in some way or another and since the onus appears to be on the accused to prove that and also the wardens to prove a ticket issue was justified is the real issue. Hence some agencies now use photographic evidence of the vehicle in situ and/or deal with the issue of fines remotely and never affix a ticket to the vehicle. As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement to do so and in any case you could be summonsed to court for the offence without a ticket being issued.
exx said:
tvrgit said:
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
Sorry but this is an oft quoted myth. Writing the ticket out and supporting that in some way with evidence, photographic (like the wardens in Brighton and Hove) or with mere comments on the rear of the ticket is sufficient. The fact that a ticket was not affixed to the vehicle when the driver returned to it is required to be proven in some way or another and since the onus appears to be on the accused to prove that and also the wardens to prove a ticket issue was justified is the real issue. Hence some agencies now use photographic evidence of the vehicle in situ and/or deal with the issue of fines remotely and never affix a ticket to the vehicle. As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement to do so and in any case you could be summonsed to court for the offence without a ticket being issued.
Hmmm, this still leaves me rather upset with them for two reasons:
1. By not informing me until a month has passed, the option of the "bargain price" £30 fine has expired.
2. Moreover, I wasn't informed of this at a time at which I could determine whether I was guilty or not.
Is simply writing a ticket acceptable evidence? Surely then it's just the word of the warden against my own? Why should he be believed as somebody more trustworthy than me, and not somebody who's just jealous of a nice car and has a simple, effective way of upsetting the owner? Not saying for a second this is the case, but the ability to prosecute based on a complete lack of material evidence seems a little alarming.
J_S_G said:
exx said:
tvrgit said:
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
Sorry but this is an oft quoted myth. Writing the ticket out and supporting that in some way with evidence, photographic (like the wardens in Brighton and Hove) or with mere comments on the rear of the ticket is sufficient. The fact that a ticket was not affixed to the vehicle when the driver returned to it is required to be proven in some way or another and since the onus appears to be on the accused to prove that and also the wardens to prove a ticket issue was justified is the real issue. Hence some agencies now use photographic evidence of the vehicle in situ and/or deal with the issue of fines remotely and never affix a ticket to the vehicle. As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement to do so and in any case you could be summonsed to court for the offence without a ticket being issued.
Hmmm, this still leaves me rather upset with them for two reasons:
1. By not informing me until a month has passed, the option of the "bargain price" £30 fine has expired.
2. Moreover, I wasn't informed of this at a time at which I could determine whether I was guilty or not.
Is simply writing a ticket acceptable evidence? Surely then it's just the word of the warden against my own? Why should he be believed as somebody more trustworthy than me, and not somebody who's just jealous of a nice car and has a simple, effective way of upsetting the owner? Not saying for a second this is the case, but the ability to prosecute based on a complete lack of material evidence seems a little alarming.
I completely agree.
My way forward would be to write back with your exact situation. There is no real need to dress it up. The facts are simple, you do not believe you have committed an offence, you were not ticketed at the time, you were not sent a letter until now.
I would ask to see the evidence which proves that you offended and on receipt of that I would state that you would have no problem paying the £30.
That is fair enough, and if they are being reasonable they should have no reason not to comply.
justinp1 said:
J_S_G said:
exx said:
tvrgit said:
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
Sorry but this is an oft quoted myth. Writing the ticket out and supporting that in some way with evidence, photographic (like the wardens in Brighton and Hove) or with mere comments on the rear of the ticket is sufficient. The fact that a ticket was not affixed to the vehicle when the driver returned to it is required to be proven in some way or another and since the onus appears to be on the accused to prove that and also the wardens to prove a ticket issue was justified is the real issue. Hence some agencies now use photographic evidence of the vehicle in situ and/or deal with the issue of fines remotely and never affix a ticket to the vehicle. As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement to do so and in any case you could be summonsed to court for the offence without a ticket being issued.
Hmmm, this still leaves me rather upset with them for two reasons:
1. By not informing me until a month has passed, the option of the "bargain price" £30 fine has expired.
2. Moreover, I wasn't informed of this at a time at which I could determine whether I was guilty or not.
Is simply writing a ticket acceptable evidence? Surely then it's just the word of the warden against my own? Why should he be believed as somebody more trustworthy than me, and not somebody who's just jealous of a nice car and has a simple, effective way of upsetting the owner? Not saying for a second this is the case, but the ability to prosecute based on a complete lack of material evidence seems a little alarming.
I completely agree.
My way forward would be to write back with your exact situation. There is no real need to dress it up. The facts are simple, you do not believe you have committed an offence, you were not ticketed at the time, you were not sent a letter until now.
I would ask to see the evidence which proves that you offended and on receipt of that I would state that you would have no problem paying the £30.
That is fair enough, and if they are being reasonable they should have no reason not to comply.
That's the plan for this Sunday's letter-writing-session. Very tempted to dust off the thesaurus in preparation, but I don't imagine it'd help my case much. 
Cheers all!
herewego said:
For heaven's sake why don't you just pick the phone and speak to them?
Because that will assume they actually give a ****!? Do you really think that if the OP telephones them that they will agree to 'just leave it'!?
Aint gonna happen, and if that the case it is a losing situation all ends up.
In legal matters you should never speak to anyone unless you are striking a deal 'off the record' which would be something in your favour.
Whatever they say, if it works in your favour they can later on deny, and suggest you have admitted something which you did not.
If you keep it formal in writing you have proof of what both parties have stated and you give yourself time to plan the next course of action.
justinp1 said:
herewego said:
For heaven's sake why don't you just pick the phone and speak to them?
Because that will assume they actually give a ****!? Do you really think that if the OP telephones them that they will agree to 'just leave it'!?
Aint gonna happen, and if that the case it is a losing situation all ends up.
In legal matters you should never speak to anyone unless you are striking a deal 'off the record' which would be something in your favour.
Whatever they say, if it works in your favour they can later on deny, and suggest you have admitted something which you did not.
If you keep it formal in writing you have proof of what both parties have stated and you give yourself time to plan the next course of action.
If they can't even issue a ticket properly which merely involves paper, pen, and glue, I'm not going to put my faith in their grasp of PABXs, IVR systems, telephone recording systems, and a "friendly chat"... I gave that a shot once before when I got done by a speed camera for doing 36 in a thirty whilst trying to avoid being car-jacked in a notorious part of town. Despite the fact that the camera caught the other car trying to run me off the road, apparently being 6mph over the limit in a car with 330mm discs all round, a driver who's used to 400BHP+ cars with no track record of causing accidents, at a speed 150+ mph below the car's limit, with some particularly sticky tyres, it being late at night with no other traffic or pedestrians, etc. I was still very much in the wrong. Instead, I was told of the error of my ways and how I should have been a good citizen and done the legal thing and got mugged/knifed/killed for the car.
Nearly lost my driving licence over contesting that one. Never again am I going to try and treat the legal system as something that is "just" and where rationality and common sense prevail.
I'll stick to letters sent via registered post, copied in triplicate, and wax seals on the envelopes where ever possible. *sighs*
exx said:
tvrgit said:
I think that until they put the ticket ON, you're ok - hence the advice that if you drive away while they are writing it, it's ok.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
But normally once the ticket os ON, it is effectively "served" - so if somebody else takes it OFF again before you get back to the car, it's not their fault.
As somebody else said, they do normally now photograph the car with ticket attached as evidence that the penalty notice was "served" so asking for evidence may be the best way forward.
Sorry but this is an oft quoted myth. Writing the ticket out and supporting that in some way with evidence, photographic (like the wardens in Brighton and Hove) or with mere comments on the rear of the ticket is sufficient. The fact that a ticket was not affixed to the vehicle when the driver returned to it is required to be proven in some way or another and since the onus appears to be on the accused to prove that and also the wardens to prove a ticket issue was justified is the real issue. Hence some agencies now use photographic evidence of the vehicle in situ and/or deal with the issue of fines remotely and never affix a ticket to the vehicle. As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement to do so and in any case you could be summonsed to court for the offence without a ticket being issued.
It maybe a myth in Emgland, but it is definitely true to Scotland, to the extent that if you are in the car wardens don't bother writing a ticket, because they know you will drive off before they can serve it. Also if they are halfway through writing a ticket when you return they will usually stop writing the ticket as you get into the car. It has saved my bacon a few times !
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