Discussion
Hello all,I am a longtime user here but have decided to do this a bit more anonymously.It may be a bit of overkill but never mind.A few weeks ago my daughter was in a local pub when a bit of trouble broke out. A lad was assaulted and as a result had to spend a couple of days in hospital.The victim has now asked if my daughter would be a witness for him.She knows the attacker and let's just say his family is less than reputable.As I have no experience of this sort of issue what could she expect if she decided to go ahead and do this?Would the attacker know she was going to court (I guess so),would she become his familiy's next "target"?Would the BiB do anything to help?.She's asked me what to do and to be honest my first reaction was for her to not get involved,I know that will upset some people here and they'll say she already is but this is my daughter.I'd hate to tell her to go ahead and then for her to end up in hospital but I'd also not want the thug to get away with it.How do these things work?life's not easy is it.Any info from BiB lawyers greatly appreciated.
alencon said:
...what could she expect if she decided to go ahead and do this?
A lot depends on your daughter's age; if she is under 17, any statement should be obtained under the "Achieving Best Evidence" (ABE) guidelines. This generally involves her statement being done by way of a video interview, rather than a written statement, and it is the edited version of this which is played at Court as evidence in chief. Any cross examination would then be done via video link. If she is over 17, then a written statement is taken, but there may still be the option of your daughter being granted "special measures" at Court. Special measures can include giving evidence via video link or from behind screens, but they have to be applied for before hand, and are not guaranteed. The Police officer who takes any statement should explain this to you.
alencon said:
Would the attacker know she was going to court...
The offender's solicitor will receive copies of all prosecution statements as part of the normal pre trial disclosure process. This will include the names of the witnesses. What they won't get is the contact details (phone number, address, etc).
alencon said:
would she become his familiy's next "target"? Would the BiB do anything to help?
You say your daughter knows the offender. Does he know her? If she is "Jane Smith" in a large town, then it's unlikely she'd be that identifiable, but if she's "Natalia Obragamopopodovasmicz" in a small village, it might be more obvious who she is.
BiB and the Courts take witness intimidation VERY seriously (maybe even more so than the original offence, as it undermines the whole system). Most forces have ways of putting "markers" on addresses, so that if a call is recived, an urgent response is despatched. My force also has panic alarms linked to the radio system, so people with the alrms don't even have to ring, they just hit the button and the alarm code goes off over the radio. If she is approached in any way, it can be dealt with. If the offender has not yet been charged, but is still on bail while enquiries continue, then once he is charged, bail conditions can be set, which can include that he does not contact, either directly or indirectly, through self or agent, the aggrieved party or any other prosecution witness. If he then does, he can be arrested for witness intimidation AND breach of bail, and potentially remanded in custody.
If your daughter does give a statement, she should have the contact details of the officer taking the statement, and the officer in the case. She will also be put in touch with the witness care unit (pre trial), who will keep her informed of the progress of the case. At trial, she will be supported by the witness service, who will explain the Court procedure to her, and look after her while she is at Court - she should be able to wait in a private room, away from the "general public"
who tend to mill around the Court concourses. alencon said:
She's asked me what to do and to be honest my first reaction was for her to not get involved, I know that will upset some people here and they'll say she already is but this is my daughter. I'd hate to tell her to go ahead and then for her to end up in hospital but I'd also not want the thug to get away with it. How do these things work?life's not easy is it. Any info from BiB lawyers greatly appreciated.
Only you and your daughetr can make the decision whether she should give a statement (which doesn't automatically mean that she'll be called to give evidence, itt all depends on just exactly how much/aht she's seen). I certainly wouldn't try and presume to tell you that life is rosy in the garden and that witnesses never get threatened. The flip side of it all is that this lad sounds like a bully, and someone at some point will have to stand up to him to make him stop. Have a chat with the officer dealing with the case, have a think about it, and make the decision you think is right for you and your daughter. Hope that helps.
Dibble said:
alencon said:
...what could she expect if she decided to go ahead and do this?
A lot depends on your daughter's age; if she is under 17, any statement should be obtained under the "Achieving Best Evidence" (ABE) guidelines. This generally involves her statement being done by way of a video interview, rather than a written statement, and it is the edited version of this which is played at Court as evidence in chief. Any cross examination would then be done via video link. If she is over 17, then a written statement is taken, but there may still be the option of your daughter being granted "special measures" at Court. Special measures can include giving evidence via video link or from behind screens, but they have to be applied for before hand, and are not guaranteed. The Police officer who takes any statement should explain this to you.
alencon said:
Would the attacker know she was going to court...
The offender's solicitor will receive copies of all prosecution statements as part of the normal pre trial disclosure process. This will include the names of the witnesses. What they won't get is the contact details (phone number, address, etc).
alencon said:
would she become his familiy's next "target"? Would the BiB do anything to help?
You say your daughter knows the offender. Does he know her? If she is "Jane Smith" in a large town, then it's unlikely she'd be that identifiable, but if she's "Natalia Obragamopopodovasmicz" in a small village, it might be more obvious who she is.
BiB and the Courts take witness intimidation VERY seriously (maybe even more so than the original offence, as it undermines the whole system). Most forces have ways of putting "markers" on addresses, so that if a call is recived, an urgent response is despatched. My force also has panic alarms linked to the radio system, so people with the alrms don't even have to ring, they just hit the button and the alarm code goes off over the radio. If she is approached in any way, it can be dealt with. If the offender has not yet been charged, but is still on bail while enquiries continue, then once he is charged, bail conditions can be set, which can include that he does not contact, either directly or indirectly, through self or agent, the aggrieved party or any other prosecution witness. If he then does, he can be arrested for witness intimidation AND breach of bail, and potentially remanded in custody.
If your daughter does give a statement, she should have the contact details of the officer taking the statement, and the officer in the case. She will also be put in touch with the witness care unit (pre trial), who will keep her informed of the progress of the case. At trial, she will be supported by the witness service, who will explain the Court procedure to her, and look after her while she is at Court - she should be able to wait in a private room, away from the "general public"
who tend to mill around the Court concourses. alencon said:
She's asked me what to do and to be honest my first reaction was for her to not get involved, I know that will upset some people here and they'll say she already is but this is my daughter. I'd hate to tell her to go ahead and then for her to end up in hospital but I'd also not want the thug to get away with it. How do these things work?life's not easy is it. Any info from BiB lawyers greatly appreciated.
Only you and your daughetr can make the decision whether she should give a statement (which doesn't automatically mean that she'll be called to give evidence, itt all depends on just exactly how much/aht she's seen). I certainly wouldn't try and presume to tell you that life is rosy in the garden and that witnesses never get threatened. The flip side of it all is that this lad sounds like a bully, and someone at some point will have to stand up to him to make him stop. Have a chat with the officer dealing with the case, have a think about it, and make the decision you think is right for you and your daughter. Hope that helps.
Superb helpful post dibble, illustrates perfectly why the bib who post here are so appreciated by most of us.
Dibble said:
Happy to help.
Thanks very much for that Dibble.I'll show her this thread and we'll have a chat and make a decision now we are better informed.I think I'll have a chat with the officer in charge of the case as well.I suppose, like you,I think the lad's a bully and needs to be stopped.If it were me to give a statement or evidence then I wouldn't hesitate but we try to protect our kids don't we (She's 16 and a half).Once again thanks for your input Dibbs.
Although not the saem, I had a similar experience a couple of years ago.
My then 11 year old daughter was assaulted over about a 15 minutes period next to a local park, by a group of perhaps 10 kids, led by two other girls. When my daughter ran into the house my first reaction was to think she's been raped.
I rang the police and took my daughter down a couple of nights later to give a statement. The perpetrators, who were known to her, were arrested, locked up (briefly!, while responsible adults were briefed as to procedure) and were eventually given a police caution after they admitted the offence. The two leaders were "known to the police" and the same age as my girl, but this was the first reported offence where a statement had been given. The previous reported were NFA because no one would actually make a statement.
The police were absolutely crystal clear. Any act of intimidation or threatening behaviour by the perps or their friends and families WOULD be acted upon.
To be fair, two years on my girl is still nervous of heading past the area where these girls hang out (chav estate), but does and is OK about it. I've followed her a couple of times to make sure she's OK in herself and she always has been.
The police follow up was excellent too, keeping us informed all the way, and the officer we dealt with has subsewquntly said that these girls have actually stopped their bullying, because everyone knows they have been cautioned and what that means to them.
Hope this helps. It took some courage for my little one to do what she did and I hope your girl can find the same courage.
My then 11 year old daughter was assaulted over about a 15 minutes period next to a local park, by a group of perhaps 10 kids, led by two other girls. When my daughter ran into the house my first reaction was to think she's been raped.
I rang the police and took my daughter down a couple of nights later to give a statement. The perpetrators, who were known to her, were arrested, locked up (briefly!, while responsible adults were briefed as to procedure) and were eventually given a police caution after they admitted the offence. The two leaders were "known to the police" and the same age as my girl, but this was the first reported offence where a statement had been given. The previous reported were NFA because no one would actually make a statement.
The police were absolutely crystal clear. Any act of intimidation or threatening behaviour by the perps or their friends and families WOULD be acted upon.
To be fair, two years on my girl is still nervous of heading past the area where these girls hang out (chav estate), but does and is OK about it. I've followed her a couple of times to make sure she's OK in herself and she always has been.
The police follow up was excellent too, keeping us informed all the way, and the officer we dealt with has subsewquntly said that these girls have actually stopped their bullying, because everyone knows they have been cautioned and what that means to them.
Hope this helps. It took some courage for my little one to do what she did and I hope your girl can find the same courage.
Alencon said:
Thanks very much for that Dibble.I'll show her this thread and we'll have a chat and make a decision now we are better informed.I think I'll have a chat with the officer in charge of the case as well.I suppose, like you,I think the lad's a bully and needs to be stopped.If it were me to give a statement or evidence then I wouldn't hesitate but we try to protect our kids don't we (She's 16 and a half).Once again thanks for your input Dibbs.
If you want any further advice, feel free to mail me via my profile.
A good friend of mine's daughter had to go to court last year when she was 16, as a prosecution witness in an affray case, she knew all of the defendants. The thing she found hardest was dealing with the aggressive defence barristers who did their job and tried their hardest to unsettle her and discredit the evidence she gave.
My wife and I both witnessed a burglary taking place some years ago and were asked to be witnesses in Crown Court, which we agreed to.
The first bloody question we were each asked was to give our names and full address!
Needless to say, we were burgled some months later, we suspect when the guy came out of prison.
The first bloody question we were each asked was to give our names and full address!
Needless to say, we were burgled some months later, we suspect when the guy came out of prison.
chrispy porker said:
So lets just let the bad guys win then .
I hope if ever you are assaulted someone has the guts to be a witness.
I hope if ever you are assaulted someone has the guts to be a witness.
I have
There was three witnesses
He got let off as it was his first offence
And i got every panel on my car keyyed
The following week i got banned for speeding as it was my first offence
Sorry guys but the justice system is totally and utterly
edDibble said:
alencon said:
...what could she expect if she decided to go ahead and do this?
A lot depends on your daughter's age; if she is under 17, any statement should be obtained under the "Achieving Best Evidence" (ABE) guidelines. This generally involves her statement being done by way of a video interview, rather than a written statement, and it is the edited version of this which is played at Court as evidence in chief. Any cross examination would then be done via video link. If she is over 17, then a written statement is taken, but there may still be the option of your daughter being granted "special measures" at Court. Special measures can include giving evidence via video link or from behind screens, but they have to be applied for before hand, and are not guaranteed. The Police officer who takes any statement should explain this to you.
alencon said:
Would the attacker know she was going to court...
The offender's solicitor will receive copies of all prosecution statements as part of the normal pre trial disclosure process. This will include the names of the witnesses. What they won't get is the contact details (phone number, address, etc).
alencon said:
would she become his familiy's next "target"? Would the BiB do anything to help?
You say your daughter knows the offender. Does he know her? If she is "Jane Smith" in a large town, then it's unlikely she'd be that identifiable, but if she's "Natalia Obragamopopodovasmicz" in a small village, it might be more obvious who she is.
BiB and the Courts take witness intimidation VERY seriously (maybe even more so than the original offence, as it undermines the whole system). Most forces have ways of putting "markers" on addresses, so that if a call is recived, an urgent response is despatched. My force also has panic alarms linked to the radio system, so people with the alrms don't even have to ring, they just hit the button and the alarm code goes off over the radio. If she is approached in any way, it can be dealt with. If the offender has not yet been charged, but is still on bail while enquiries continue, then once he is charged, bail conditions can be set, which can include that he does not contact, either directly or indirectly, through self or agent, the aggrieved party or any other prosecution witness. If he then does, he can be arrested for witness intimidation AND breach of bail, and potentially remanded in custody.
If your daughter does give a statement, she should have the contact details of the officer taking the statement, and the officer in the case. She will also be put in touch with the witness care unit (pre trial), who will keep her informed of the progress of the case. At trial, she will be supported by the witness service, who will explain the Court procedure to her, and look after her while she is at Court - she should be able to wait in a private room, away from the "general public"
who tend to mill around the Court concourses. alencon said:
She's asked me what to do and to be honest my first reaction was for her to not get involved, I know that will upset some people here and they'll say she already is but this is my daughter. I'd hate to tell her to go ahead and then for her to end up in hospital but I'd also not want the thug to get away with it. How do these things work?life's not easy is it. Any info from BiB lawyers greatly appreciated.
Only you and your daughetr can make the decision whether she should give a statement (which doesn't automatically mean that she'll be called to give evidence, itt all depends on just exactly how much/aht she's seen). I certainly wouldn't try and presume to tell you that life is rosy in the garden and that witnesses never get threatened. The flip side of it all is that this lad sounds like a bully, and someone at some point will have to stand up to him to make him stop. Have a chat with the officer dealing with the case, have a think about it, and make the decision you think is right for you and your daughter. Hope that helps.
I endorse each word of this post.
I foster kids.. I adopted one victim of abuse.
In some cases these children will have to testify against those who abused or threatened them in any way. Police und carers strive to ensure protections.
The courts may have remedies which prevent a knock - on effect to your daughter as a result of her evidence too. But as Liebster Dibble say so sensibly . und ist again why BiB of this calibre
are the ones we want anyway 
.. und why we value these officers who help on line.. voluntarily .. in their own time .. valuable free time.. und whether or not we agree with every post or not .. ist very valuable. If there ist a disagreement with their views.. then ist a disgreement .. und neither party should suffer any abuse for having a different point of view either .. each should respect und learn a little from eacy other anyway. Ist what these chatty fora should be about really.. bit of cheek.. leg pulling.. friendly banter .. but nothing nasty in intent
PS .. I still want more Dibbles .. even though they may tick me off over some blip or other.. but I like people und police ARE PEOPLE!
Come on folks, the BiB on here are making an effort to give (very good) advice to us out of their own time.
What the hell is it with some people with chips on their shoulders, thinking they can just use the privacy of a computer screen to belittle someones job, which, given by their inputs on this forum, these guys are proud of their profession and are devoting their careers to giving something back, and ultimately to make this country a better place. It is a lot more noble than most jobs, thankless at timesm I'm sure, and not everyone can do it.
I for one am a huge supporter of what the police stand for, particularly on ground level. Are they perfect? No. All constabularies have their issues, some more than others, and you can bet your skulking, whining arse, that controvercial policies are thought up by people out of touch with the community. NOT those actively patrolling our streets.
The BiB on here do a damm good job of making an effort to be helpful. I've never yet (touch wood) needed to call on them for assistance, but from what I hear, they are more than willing to provide advice, because these chaps are all too aware of the problems that exist, and have to deal with shit being thrown at them on a daily basis. For f*cks sake don't give them crap here when they are trying to help.
I'm well aware that the justice system has massive problems, and the day the Lord Chief Justice becomes a PHer, then you can quiz him about it. But please, for crying out loud, can we have a bit of respect for the BiB (and others) on here trying to give advice to those unfortunate enough to need it.
Top post dibble, by the way.
Back on thread, I would ask the OP and his daughter to dig deep, and if possible, provide statements. Its an aspect of the justice system that relies on us, the public witness, to maintain.
I was assaulted a few years back quite badly. I was in a town I dont go to often, and wasn't too concerned about being 'hunted' by the pond-life that assaulted me before the court hearing. Anyway, the court hearing went through, and the tw@t was sent down for 4 years, having a criminal history to fill a brittanica. My brother, a witness (and a BIG guy who happens to be a barrister) was followed by a friend of the jailbait and subsequently assaulted. Anyhow, my brother bloody nearly killed him (no joke), and said thug was also sent down for a few years.
Despite the justice system being too soft on occasions, witnesses are very much a vital part of the process, and without them, there would be more scumbag down-and-out criminals on the streets than there could be. There's 2 that I know of myself.
If you all want to whine about the justice system, p!ss off and live somewhere in West Africa, and see how far your moaning gets you. If you want to do your bit to make this a better country to live in, make a stand, and do something about it.
Rant over.
What the hell is it with some people with chips on their shoulders, thinking they can just use the privacy of a computer screen to belittle someones job, which, given by their inputs on this forum, these guys are proud of their profession and are devoting their careers to giving something back, and ultimately to make this country a better place. It is a lot more noble than most jobs, thankless at timesm I'm sure, and not everyone can do it.
I for one am a huge supporter of what the police stand for, particularly on ground level. Are they perfect? No. All constabularies have their issues, some more than others, and you can bet your skulking, whining arse, that controvercial policies are thought up by people out of touch with the community. NOT those actively patrolling our streets.
The BiB on here do a damm good job of making an effort to be helpful. I've never yet (touch wood) needed to call on them for assistance, but from what I hear, they are more than willing to provide advice, because these chaps are all too aware of the problems that exist, and have to deal with shit being thrown at them on a daily basis. For f*cks sake don't give them crap here when they are trying to help.
I'm well aware that the justice system has massive problems, and the day the Lord Chief Justice becomes a PHer, then you can quiz him about it. But please, for crying out loud, can we have a bit of respect for the BiB (and others) on here trying to give advice to those unfortunate enough to need it.
Top post dibble, by the way.
Back on thread, I would ask the OP and his daughter to dig deep, and if possible, provide statements. Its an aspect of the justice system that relies on us, the public witness, to maintain.
I was assaulted a few years back quite badly. I was in a town I dont go to often, and wasn't too concerned about being 'hunted' by the pond-life that assaulted me before the court hearing. Anyway, the court hearing went through, and the tw@t was sent down for 4 years, having a criminal history to fill a brittanica. My brother, a witness (and a BIG guy who happens to be a barrister) was followed by a friend of the jailbait and subsequently assaulted. Anyhow, my brother bloody nearly killed him (no joke), and said thug was also sent down for a few years.
Despite the justice system being too soft on occasions, witnesses are very much a vital part of the process, and without them, there would be more scumbag down-and-out criminals on the streets than there could be. There's 2 that I know of myself.
If you all want to whine about the justice system, p!ss off and live somewhere in West Africa, and see how far your moaning gets you. If you want to do your bit to make this a better country to live in, make a stand, and do something about it.
Rant over.
Yes Dibble very well done. The answer is no different should it have come up in Scotland. One point in Scotland is to remember the person who runs the show in criminal enquiries is the Procurator Fiscal not the police. If the PF establishes you witnessed a crime then the PF will decide if you will be a witness not you.
Its not unheard of for the PF to get a warrant for a witness who has failed to attend court even though they don't want to be there.
Saying that for genuine frightened witnesses they are sympathetic and we are geared up for dealing with that.
In relation to somebody who posted that the police will only take action if they have evidence something may happen, I'm glad to say thats rubbish. The police have a duty of care to all crown witnesses and a risk assessment is done. If intelligence indicates possible problems we will deal with it. Thats all I can say on that.
Its not unheard of for the PF to get a warrant for a witness who has failed to attend court even though they don't want to be there.
Saying that for genuine frightened witnesses they are sympathetic and we are geared up for dealing with that.
In relation to somebody who posted that the police will only take action if they have evidence something may happen, I'm glad to say thats rubbish. The police have a duty of care to all crown witnesses and a risk assessment is done. If intelligence indicates possible problems we will deal with it. Thats all I can say on that.
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