Question about learner drivers

[imbecile]

I am 20, have ROADA gold and would feel (relatively) comfortable teaching my 17 year old brother to drive. Obviously this is illegal. My parents (Mum has IAM, don't ask about my Dad) would not feel comfortable at all, probably because of the fun they had when I was learning. Is it legal for me to sit in the front seat on dual control cars (you can hire them around here for £9/hour) and have a parent in the back, nominally as the supervising driver, if they are ultimately prepared to take responsibility for the car? This is supplementry to ADI driving lessons, of course.

[gently bentley]

imbecile said:

I am 20, have ROADA gold and would feel (relatively) comfortable teaching my 17 year old brother to drive. Obviously this is illegal. My parents (Mum has IAM, don't ask about my Dad) would not feel comfortable at all, probably because of the fun they had when I was learning. Is it legal for me to sit in the front seat on dual control cars (you can hire them around here for £9/hour) and have a parent in the back, nominally as the supervising driver, if they are ultimately prepared to take responsibility for the car? This is supplementry to ADI driving lessons, of course.

Bloody good question. No flippin idea.

Hope that helps

[imbecile]

gently bentley said:

imbecile said:

I am 20, have ROADA gold and would feel (relatively) comfortable teaching my 17 year old brother to drive. Obviously this is illegal. My parents (Mum has IAM, don't ask about my Dad) would not feel comfortable at all, probably because of the fun they had when I was learning. Is it legal for me to sit in the front seat on dual control cars (you can hire them around here for £9/hour) and have a parent in the back, nominally as the supervising driver, if they are ultimately prepared to take responsibility for the car? This is supplementry to ADI driving lessons, of course.

Bloody good question. No flippin idea.

Hope that helps

Not far from your patch, either - I'd be getting the car from Arnold Clark in Ayr...

[vonhosen]

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

[imbecile]

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

Edited by imbecile on Thursday 19th April 00:41

[vonhosen]

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

There is no requirement to have dual controls.
If it didn't have dual controls & you were in the front, I'd report.
I can't even envisage the hypothetical situation.

[imbecile]

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

There is no requirement to have dual controls.
If it didn't have dual controls & you were in the front, I'd report.
I can't even envisage the hypothetical situation.

I know there's no requirement to have dual controls, I just thought it was an interesting idea (as I'm sure you'd have no problem with a parent in the front and me in the back in a non dual-control car).

So is this a legal grey area, or is there case law?

[vonhosen]

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

There is no requirement to have dual controls.
If it didn't have dual controls & you were in the front, I'd report.
I can't even envisage the hypothetical situation.

I know there's no requirement to have dual controls, I just thought it was an interesting idea (as I'm sure you'd have no problem with a parent in the front and me in the back in a non dual-control car).

So is this a legal grey area, or is there case law?

I don't know of any off hand in respect of the exact circumstances that you outline, but there are several in relation to supervising learners (they usually tend to be in respect of drink drive cases) & the principles will carry over. They are certainly along the lines of whether the driver is being supervised or not is a matter of fact that must be considered by the magistrates in each individual case.

For me personally I would expect the supervisor to place themselves in the best possible position within the vehicle to be able to exercise any control available to them. It is not unheard of with supervising to have to grab the wheel at some stage (not just learners either )

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 19th April 00:57

[imbecile]

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

There is no requirement to have dual controls.
If it didn't have dual controls & you were in the front, I'd report.
I can't even envisage the hypothetical situation.

I know there's no requirement to have dual controls, I just thought it was an interesting idea (as I'm sure you'd have no problem with a parent in the front and me in the back in a non dual-control car).

So is this a legal grey area, or is there case law?

I don't know of any off hand in respect of the exact circumstances that you outline, but there are several in relation to supervising learners (they usually tend to be in respect of drink drive cases) & the principles will carry over. They are certainly along the lines of whether the driver is being supervised or not is a matter of fact that must be considered by the magistrates in each individual case.

Yup, but I don't really trust magistrates to make consistent decisions. I don't really know much about the Scottish legal system but I believe sherrifs are actually legally qualified, so could see a more predictable trial coming from them.

(And as a final hypothetical, what about one legal supervisor, but in the back seat?)

[vonhosen]

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

There is no requirement to have dual controls.
If it didn't have dual controls & you were in the front, I'd report.
I can't even envisage the hypothetical situation.

I know there's no requirement to have dual controls, I just thought it was an interesting idea (as I'm sure you'd have no problem with a parent in the front and me in the back in a non dual-control car).

So is this a legal grey area, or is there case law?

I don't know of any off hand in respect of the exact circumstances that you outline, but there are several in relation to supervising learners (they usually tend to be in respect of drink drive cases) & the principles will carry over. They are certainly along the lines of whether the driver is being supervised or not is a matter of fact that must be considered by the magistrates in each individual case.

Yup, but I don't really trust magistrates to make consistent decisions. I don't really know much about the Scottish legal system but I believe sherrifs are actually legally qualified, so could see a more predictable trial coming from them.

(And as a final hypothetical, what about one legal supervisor, but in the back seat?)

As I said I'd personally expect the supervisor to position themselves in the most appropriate place available & ordinarily that would be in the front passenger seat in a car.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 19th April 01:01

[imbecile]

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

imbecile said:

vonhosen said:

The supervisor under the legislation would have to be in or on the vehicle & by definition also be in charge of the vehicle.
Whether they are is a matter of fact in each case for the magistrate to decide.
If I were to encounter the circumstances you were outlining I would not be happy with them & the action I would take in those circumstances would be to report for the offences & leave it to the magistrate (sheriff) to decide.

What about if the car wasn't dual control?

And, as a ridiculous hypothetical, what if it were dual control, but the dual controls and I were in the back, whilst the parent was in the front?

ETA: I just noticed the supervisor could be 'on' the vehicle. I have some rather hilarious images in my head now

There is no requirement to have dual controls.
If it didn't have dual controls & you were in the front, I'd report.
I can't even envisage the hypothetical situation.

I know there's no requirement to have dual controls, I just thought it was an interesting idea (as I'm sure you'd have no problem with a parent in the front and me in the back in a non dual-control car).

So is this a legal grey area, or is there case law?

I don't know of any off hand in respect of the exact circumstances that you outline, but there are several in relation to supervising learners (they usually tend to be in respect of drink drive cases) & the principles will carry over. They are certainly along the lines of whether the driver is being supervised or not is a matter of fact that must be considered by the magistrates in each individual case.

Yup, but I don't really trust magistrates to make consistent decisions. I don't really know much about the Scottish legal system but I believe sherrifs are actually legally qualified, so could see a more predictable trial coming from them.

(And as a final hypothetical, what about one legal supervisor, but in the back seat?)

As I said I'd personally expect the supervisor to position themselves in the most appropriate place available & ordinarily that would be in the front passenger seat in a car.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 19th April 01:01

Ok, that makes sense, thank's for the help!