Officer safety

[gently bentley]

Ok me again asking another question of my English friends.

Just requalified today on officer safety. The first thing they show you is the Ian Broadhurst murder. (God love him)

It was a bit of a suprise when our instructor told us that PACE (remember we don't have this in Scotland) states that only an arrested person may be handcuffed. Is this true?

Scots Law permits a Scottish police officer to handcuff anybody (regardless of status) provided the officer can justify the action in court. (Few Sheriffs or Judges find against the police on this one and even if they do its a comment learning curve lets move on, no civil action to be scared of)

They then told us that English cops can only use force if the (percieved violence is against them) In Scotland we can go on the offensive if we believe their is a danger to the public even though nothing has yet happened.

Comments. In particular on handcuffs.

[vonhosen]

Not true, handcuffs or use of force.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 19th April 23:36

[gently bentley]

vonhosen said:

Not true, handcuffs or use of force.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 19th April 23:36

Easy thanks.

So basically when the cops came across that murdering scumbag and they got the 6th sense they could have cuffed him had they chose to do so and that action would have been ok?

Also Ive been told by the same instructor that he has been given leave to appeal against his sentance? Any idea?

[vonhosen]

gently bentley said:

vonhosen said:

Not true, handcuffs or use of force.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 19th April 23:36

Easy thanks.

So basically when the cops came across that murdering scumbag and they got the 6th sense they could have cuffed him had they chose to do so and that action would have been ok?

Also Ive been told by the same instructor that he has been given leave to appeal against his sentance? Any idea?

The use of handcuffs is a use of force.
If that use of force is justifiable & reasonable then it's fine.
Obviously if it's deemed not to be then it is an actionable assault.

The legislation that covers the use of force is Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967, Section 117 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 & Common Law (Self Defence).

What it all amounts to is that you can use reasonable force in order defend yourself, another or property, as well as to prevent crime & to lawfully arrest/detain.


When judging reasonableness two simple questions would be asked

1) Was the use of force justified in the circumstances (i.e. was there a need for any force at all?)
and
2) Was the force used excessive in the circumstances?

It is a subjective test as both questions are to be answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be at that time. In other words the fact that they got it wrong doesn't mean they are guilty if they 'honestly believed' the situation was different & they were entitled to that belief with the information available to them at that time. It also allows for pre-emptive action where reasonable in the circumstances.

The level of force used could in some circumstances even be fatal & still be both reasonable & justifiable within the law.

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 20th April 07:17

[WeirdNeville]

Your officer saftey instructor is wrong on both counts.

I quite regularly handcuff people before saying a word - And I've very often been glad of doing so. It's a "pre-emptive strike" based on my knowledge of what the person is doing (dealing drugs/robbing people) and my previous experience of such encounters. I've been assaulted, had prolonged roll arounds that needn't have happened, and foot chases with suspects discarding evidence along the way although that doesn't count in terms of justifying the use of force.

I can quite happily argue that handcuffing someone in the first instance is necessary to prevent injury to myself, my colleagues, passers by and even the suspect themselves based on my experience.

If you've ever seen a "jump on" stop on a drug dealer you'll know how violent and shocking it can look. When we do them we have cards to hand out to passers by saying "You have just witnessed a stop and search being carried out. This tactic is necessary because of the steps taken by drug dealers to prevent themselves being caugh. If you have any questions or would like to provide a statement as to what you saw please call this number...". We also get loads of phone calls saying that someone is being robbed! Of course technically the dealer is under arrest the moment you lay hands on him....

[jasandjules]

Not seen many judges ever criticise an officer for "exuberant" use of either cuffs or force.

Indeed, I have seen a high court action wherein it was decided that each was as bad as the other (the offender got a bit of a kicking, quite deservedly so, but sued the officer, who did use rather more force than necessary in a tit for tat trading of kicks!!) and dismissed the application.

[slowly slowly]

From an outsiders point of view would it be acceptable to handcuff someone to, for example a lamp post or is that seen as taking restraint a little too far?.

[jasandjules]

slowly slowly said:

From an outsiders point of view would it be acceptable to handcuff someone to, for example a lamp post or is that seen as taking restraint a little too far?.

Only on a stag night.

[mr_annie_vxr]

It would depend on circumstances and justifications. For example multiple offenders being violent, you may chose to handcuff one to an imoveable object to allow you to focus on the second. Its all about justifiable and reasonable behaviour in the circumstances. I know a colleague who handcuffed someone to a police car tow eye..

[MilnerR]

mr_annie_vxr said:

It would depend on circumstances and justifications. For example multiple offenders being violent, you may chose to handcuff one to an imoveable object to allow you to focus on the second. Its all about justifiable and reasonable behaviour in the circumstances. I know a colleague who handcuffed someone to a police car tow eye..

I guess you have to remember where you put them if you do this. I have an image of an urgent call coming over the radio and said colleague leaping in and driving off with drunken scrote in hot pursuit

[slowly slowly]

I know someone that tied their poodle to the back of the caravan when they stopped in a layby for a brew, 5 minutes into the resumed journey he (the driver) turned to the family and said "where's the dog".
It spoiled the holiday the say the least.

[mr_annie_vxr]

MilnerR said:

mr_annie_vxr said:

It would depend on circumstances and justifications. For example multiple offenders being violent, you may chose to handcuff one to an imoveable object to allow you to focus on the second. Its all about justifiable and reasonable behaviour in the circumstances. I know a colleague who handcuffed someone to a police car tow eye..

I guess you have to remember where you put them if you do this. I have an image of an urgent call coming over the radio and said colleague leaping in and driving off with drunken scrote in hot pursuit

Its funny you should say that.....

[slowly slowly]

jasandjules said:

slowly slowly said:

From an outsiders point of view would it be acceptable to handcuff someone to, for example a lamp post or is that seen as taking restraint a little too far?.

Only on a stag night.

I saw that once and it was a Sunday lunchtime, he had been cuffed to the traffic lights in the middle of the road on a dual carriageway, he had his shoes on and some one had wrapped his coat round the post so that he could try to keep his tackle out of view, poor sod.

[streaky]

MilnerR said:

mr_annie_vxr said:

It would depend on circumstances and justifications. For example multiple offenders being violent, you may chose to handcuff one to an imoveable object to allow you to focus on the second. Its all about justifiable and reasonable behaviour in the circumstances. I know a colleague who handcuffed someone to a police car tow eye..

I guess you have to remember where you put them if you do this. I have an image of an urgent call coming over the radio and said colleague leaping in and driving off with drunken scrote in hot pursuit

The towing eye is usually on the front! - Streaky

[MilnerR]

streaky said:

MilnerR said:

mr_annie_vxr said:

It would depend on circumstances and justifications. For example multiple offenders being violent, you may chose to handcuff one to an imoveable object to allow you to focus on the second. Its all about justifiable and reasonable behaviour in the circumstances. I know a colleague who handcuffed someone to a police car tow eye..

I guess you have to remember where you put them if you do this. I have an image of an urgent call coming over the radio and said colleague leaping in and driving off with drunken scrote in hot pursuit

The towing eye is usually on the front! - Streaky

What do you tie a rope to when you tow a car? That's right, the towing eye on the back....

[mr_annie_vxr]

MilnerR said:

streaky said:

MilnerR said:

mr_annie_vxr said:

It would depend on circumstances and justifications. For example multiple offenders being violent, you may chose to handcuff one to an imoveable object to allow you to focus on the second. Its all about justifiable and reasonable behaviour in the circumstances. I know a colleague who handcuffed someone to a police car tow eye..

I guess you have to remember where you put them if you do this. I have an image of an urgent call coming over the radio and said colleague leaping in and driving off with drunken scrote in hot pursuit

The towing eye is usually on the front! - Streaky

What do you tie a rope to when you tow a car? That's right, the towing eye on the back....

Lets just say one of you was very close to the mark about what nearly happened.. Oh how we laughed...

[Mr2Mike]

slowly slowly said:

I know someone that tied their poodle to the back of the caravan when they stopped in a layby for a brew, 5 minutes into the resumed journey he (the driver) turned to the family and said "where's the dog".
It spoiled the holiday the say the least.

Or perhaps you watched "National Lampoons Vacation"...