Van towing car on an A frame on Mway - speed limit?
Discussion
Earlier this evening I was plodding up the M5 at an indicated 75mph (Granny in the car you see) and we got overtaken by The 4th Emergency Service, with a broken down Espace on an A frame behind it (no-one in the Espace of course)
But what would his speed limit be? I was guessing it would be 50mph as its an unbraked trailer?
But what would his speed limit be? I was guessing it would be 50mph as its an unbraked trailer?
I'd say his limit was 60.
Also I'd argue that it was only because it was an AA van, (5th* emergency service! well said Fort Jefferson!) that he could get away with it as an unbraked trailer because there are loads of exemptions in that case.
If not a breakdown for example, you are allowed to tow an unbraked trailer with a max permitted weight of 750kg, that is loaded weight not unloaded btw, or half of the towing vehicles kerb weight, whichever is less.
I would argue that an AA van towing an Espace falls foul of both those criteria. However he would argue, probably successfully, that he is OK as he is permitted to do this to remove a vehicle to a place of safety.
IMHO the AA et al by using A frames to recover vehicles long distances are operating outside the spirit of the law, but with the v complicated EU C&U legislation I fully aceept that it is debatable whether they are also outside the letter of the law.
ETA: I know I know 5th not 4th! I always count RNLI ahead of Coastguard, but then I'm biased.
Also I'd argue that it was only because it was an AA van, (5th* emergency service! well said Fort Jefferson!) that he could get away with it as an unbraked trailer because there are loads of exemptions in that case.
If not a breakdown for example, you are allowed to tow an unbraked trailer with a max permitted weight of 750kg, that is loaded weight not unloaded btw, or half of the towing vehicles kerb weight, whichever is less.
I would argue that an AA van towing an Espace falls foul of both those criteria. However he would argue, probably successfully, that he is OK as he is permitted to do this to remove a vehicle to a place of safety.
IMHO the AA et al by using A frames to recover vehicles long distances are operating outside the spirit of the law, but with the v complicated EU C&U legislation I fully aceept that it is debatable whether they are also outside the letter of the law.
ETA: I know I know 5th not 4th! I always count RNLI ahead of Coastguard, but then I'm biased.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Sunday 22 April 10:08
Flat in Fifth said:
I'd say his limit was 60.
Also I'd argue that it was only because it was an AA van, (5th* emergency service! well said Fort Jefferson!) that he could get away with it as an unbraked trailer because there are loads of exemptions in that case.
If not a breakdown for example, you are allowed to tow an unbraked trailer with a max permitted weight of 750kg, that is loaded weight not unloaded btw, or half of the towing vehicles kerb weight, whichever is less.
I would argue that an AA van towing an Espace falls foul of both those criteria. However he would argue, probably successfully, that he is OK as he is permitted to do this to remove a vehicle to a place of safety.
IMHO the AA et al by using A frames to recover vehicles long distances are operating outside the spirit of the law, but with the v complicated EU C&U legislation I fully aceept that it is debatable whether they are also outside the letter of the law.
ETA: I know I know 5th not 4th! I always count RNLI ahead of Coastguard, but then I'm biased.
Also I'd argue that it was only because it was an AA van, (5th* emergency service! well said Fort Jefferson!) that he could get away with it as an unbraked trailer because there are loads of exemptions in that case.
If not a breakdown for example, you are allowed to tow an unbraked trailer with a max permitted weight of 750kg, that is loaded weight not unloaded btw, or half of the towing vehicles kerb weight, whichever is less.
I would argue that an AA van towing an Espace falls foul of both those criteria. However he would argue, probably successfully, that he is OK as he is permitted to do this to remove a vehicle to a place of safety.
IMHO the AA et al by using A frames to recover vehicles long distances are operating outside the spirit of the law, but with the v complicated EU C&U legislation I fully aceept that it is debatable whether they are also outside the letter of the law.
ETA: I know I know 5th not 4th! I always count RNLI ahead of Coastguard, but then I'm biased.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Sunday 22 April 10:08
Aren't there technically six emergency services?
Police/Fire/Ambulance at 1-3, natch, and then coastguard, mountain rescue and ?cave/mine rescue services? I'm just half-remembering that from somewhere...
becca_viola said:
Aren't there technically six emergency services?
Police/Fire/Ambulance at 1-3, natch, and then coastguard, mountain rescue and ?cave/mine rescue services? I'm just half-remembering that from somewhere...
You could add on Bomb Disposal to that list.
Should we start a new forum do you reckon? Pedantheads.com Detail Matters.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Sunday 22 April 12:26
Flat in Fifth said:
becca_viola said:
Aren't there technically six emergency services?
Police/Fire/Ambulance at 1-3, natch, and then coastguard, mountain rescue and ?cave/mine rescue services? I'm just half-remembering that from somewhere...
You could add on Bomb Disposal to that list.
Should we start a new forum do you reckon? Pedantheads.com Detail Matters.
Here you go.
Edited by Major Bloodnok on Sunday 22 April 12:14
Flat in Fifth said:
[quote=becca_viola
Aren't there technically six emergency services?
Police/Fire/Ambulance at 1-3, natch, and then coastguard, mountain rescue and ?cave/mine rescue services? I'm just half-remembering that from somewhere...[/quote]
You could add on Bomb Disposal to that list.
Should we start a new forum do you reckon? Pedantheads.com Detail Matters.
[/quote]
I was just wondering... I don't see how you could justify a long distance tow as necessary to remove a vehicle from a dangerous position. Surely you should never need to tow it further than the next service station or off-motorway parking place.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
RNLI aren't an emergency service - you dial 999 and ask for coastguard (the 4th emergency service) who would call out RNLI if necessary.
I was once subborned as a temporary member of the coastguard for a call - landrover flashing blues and bombing along at top speed- I think we got above 40 at one point
I'm not sure about mountain and cave rescue.
I was once subborned as a temporary member of the coastguard for a call - landrover flashing blues and bombing along at top speed- I think we got above 40 at one point
I'm not sure about mountain and cave rescue.
GreenV8S said:
I don't see how you could justify a long distance tow as necessary to remove a vehicle from a dangerous position. Surely you should never need to tow it further than the next service station or off-motorway parking place.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Why not tow on the A Frame for any distance? It's perfectly safe. The AA have a database of cars that can be A Framed or not. Some of this is based on gearbox (TR7 can't be towed for instance as the gearbox gets no lube) some of it is based on suspension layout & bodyshape, spoilers for instance.
tr7v8 said:
GreenV8S said:
I don't see how you could justify a long distance tow as necessary to remove a vehicle from a dangerous position. Surely you should never need to tow it further than the next service station or off-motorway parking place.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Why not tow on the A Frame for any distance? It's perfectly safe.
Because of the two reasons I mentioned above.
I almost posted the same question last weekend as I was driving along the M4 at about 75 and got passed by a "large" volvo estate with a Clio on an A frame (also being an MLM)
He must have been at 90, then he got to the long "hill" before Junct 13" (wales bound) and then slowed down where apon I went past again
Gob smacked was not the word
He must have been at 90, then he got to the long "hill" before Junct 13" (wales bound) and then slowed down where apon I went past again
Gob smacked was not the word
GreenV8S said:
tr7v8 said:
GreenV8S said:
I don't see how you could justify a long distance tow as necessary to remove a vehicle from a dangerous position. Surely you should never need to tow it further than the next service station or off-motorway parking place.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Why not tow on the A Frame for any distance? It's perfectly safe.
Because of the two reasons I mentioned above.
I answered the second one as for the first, if you have AA relay then they'll take you home as they did with my Alfa a few years ago. Towed me around 70 miles or so.
Edited by tr7v8 on Tuesday 24th April 15:50
Just like to add that it also apears to be clear from DfT perspective that quote "A-frames and dollies are intended to be used for recovering broken down vehicles and not transporting vehicles from A to B." end quote.
Personally, I don't think the regs are as clear cut as that, but I suspect that is what the regulation drafters intended.
At what point does recovery become transporting? I dunno, but recovery is not defined in the regs from what I can see, but usually it is taken to mean removing to a place of safety. In other words disconnecting the ignition and towing it length and breadth of Europe is transportation.
Personally, I don't think the regs are as clear cut as that, but I suspect that is what the regulation drafters intended.
At what point does recovery become transporting? I dunno, but recovery is not defined in the regs from what I can see, but usually it is taken to mean removing to a place of safety. In other words disconnecting the ignition and towing it length and breadth of Europe is transportation.
mg6b said:
The answer is that he cannot exceed 60mph. The vehicle on the A frame reverts to a trailer. He is then subject to towing regulations.
IIRC towing a trailer is 60mph if it has brakes and 50mph if it doesn't. If a car is on an A frame (specifically for one picked up by the AA) then surely its 50mph as the "trailer" brakes arent operated in any way by the A frame. I understand some motorhome owners have their cars modified so they become braked trailers, hence my guess. tr7v8 said:
GreenV8S said:
tr7v8 said:
GreenV8S said:
I don't see how you could justify a long distance tow as necessary to remove a vehicle from a dangerous position. Surely you should never need to tow it further than the next service station or off-motorway parking place.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Towing long distance or at high speed also risks damaging the gearbox unless the transmission has been disconnected.
Why not tow on the A Frame for any distance? It's perfectly safe.
Because of the two reasons I mentioned above.
I answered the second one as for the first, if you have AA relay then they'll take you home as they did with my Alfa a few years ago. Towed me around 70 miles or so.
Edited by tr7v8 on Tuesday 24th April 15:50
Clearly they do it sometimes, hence the original post. That doesn't mean it's legal. I suspect that the gearbox lubrication issue is more widespread than you're suggesting, but hard to prove that either way. However, I would point out that as far as I'm aware it isn't normal practice for any of the breakdown services to tow a vehicle on a tow bar or A frame except a short distance to move it off a motorway. They typically either flat bed it or put it on a spectacle lift with the driven wheels off the road.
J500ANT said:
mg6b said:
The answer is that he cannot exceed 60mph. The vehicle on the A frame reverts to a trailer. He is then subject to towing regulations.
IIRC towing a trailer is 60mph if it has brakes and 50mph if it doesn't. If a car is on an A frame (specifically for one picked up by the AA) then surely its 50mph as the "trailer" brakes arent operated in any way by the A frame. I understand some motorhome owners have their cars modified so they become braked trailers, hence my guess. On the A frames I've looked at there was a cable that connected to the brake pedal.
niva441 said:
J500ANT said:
mg6b said:
The answer is that he cannot exceed 60mph. The vehicle on the A frame reverts to a trailer. He is then subject to towing regulations.
IIRC towing a trailer is 60mph if it has brakes and 50mph if it doesn't. If a car is on an A frame (specifically for one picked up by the AA) then surely its 50mph as the "trailer" brakes arent operated in any way by the A frame. I understand some motorhome owners have their cars modified so they become braked trailers, hence my guess. On the A frames I've looked at there was a cable that connected to the brake pedal.
How effective is that? no brake servo. I'd bet the brakes don't meet the C&U standards.
Anyway what operated the cable on the A-frames you looked at, overrun mechanism?
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff